Ashlands with melee weapons ?

[luponix]

I overall like the Ashlands. The Biome being harder and more populated by enemies also fits well to how isolated it is compared to other biomes. I am not a fan of the distortion effect, similar to how the mistlands is a much better and prettier biome without the fog and with more enemies.

But one thing that seems really odd is the weapon balance.
Magic is by far the most effective thing with the staff of wild dominating when supplementing a big eitr pool + regeneration + staff of protection.
The new Crossbow can also oneshot most things when having levelled the skill a lot

After recognizing how much i just use magic there i went back and experimented a bit with the close melee weapons and its rough.
Parrying carries melee weapons till the ashlands but in the ashlands you run into the problem that you attract a mass of enemies.
So if you just parry and stagger the one that attacks you and try to get a hit in the chances are that the others will hit you by the time you swing your attack.
I had no luck with getting them to sync up their attacks reliably since they seem to move at different speeds and have different attack animation times.

The problem is a fundamental one. And so the moment groups form be it wether they find you faster than you can kill them or because you were busy or distracted with a morgen you are going to be not very effective (compared to magic) with the close melee weapons despite their excellent compatibility with the undead -> spirit,blunt,frost etc

So is magic just better from here on out ?
Its not like its practical to swap your armor and food buffs depending on how many enemies you see approaching
Isnt it a design flaw if the playstyles that players have invested their time -> skill levels + ressources in become this bad.

I am not sure how to fix this in a way that allows for high enemy counts and doesnt change weapon stats but i think it would lie in the direction of giving the player more control over his movement and the point he attacks toward.

What do you guys think about this. I havent played dark souls but i would expect the same issue to crop up there. Are there any games that solve this ?

[OctoberSky]

Have you used chain lightening or wild enchantments? I found klossen[valheim.fandom.com] and storm star[valheim.fandom.com] quite effective in close combat.

[luponix]

i didnt. will give that a try. thx

[Cattastrafy]

Me and my buddy did a full run through Ashlands. He was mage and I was tank melee.

I am pretty adept at melee combat, can parry 90% of attacks and whatnot. Roll when needed nps.

I was capable of handling myself when needed with melee or bow, but my buddy absolutely wrecked when we were together. I was merely a distraction most of the time while he did majority of the damage. Which is fine, kind of the definition of a classic tank.

Playing solo, id have to go mage. There's just no comparison. The super short parry stagger time of most enemies only gives you time to swing once and you can't deal enough damage to chain stagger them like all other biomes I remember. If they weren't resistant to all melee damage (iirc) it'd probably solve the issue for melee. I'm not sure why the devs are obsessed with most enemies being resistant to most of all melee damage from mistlands to ash. If it helps with balance issues, they need to just readjust melee weapon damage to scale better?

Just my 2c.

[locusofthought]

The only problem with Melee weapons I've seen in the Ashlands is that enemies don't seem to stay staggered very long. I've yet to transition away from lvl 3 Carapace armor, and there is an ongoing shortage of good food, due to how much one actually needs. So, blocking 1-star warriors is a bit of a challenge. I've yet to engage with a valkyrie.
Parrying is still very effective, but fighting off groups is definitely risky. My only death so far came from Morgen + Warrior + archer + an "ally's" fireball blotting out my screen.
If it matters, my weapon of choice since the Mountains is Frostner, and my block skill is ~30.

[Faceplant]

Have you tried the axes?

Seriously, what weapons and armor are you trying to use? I find that sword and board is plenty strong enough, but the axes are next level!

For me, melee is much more powerful than magic, but I'm not anywhere near an expert at it. I would love to see some examples of how to survive tough situations with the staves. How do you deal with half a dozen or more opponents at once with the staves without hitting a wall where you just can't keep up? That's my problem.

In any case, I made another "day in the life" video to show how well melee works (at least for me). I just went out to cut some wood, and it starts out slow, but I was able to pull in a couple of morgen to demonstrate the effectiveness of the axes against them. Most mobs, including morgen, will fall to a single combo of the axes, or at least not much more, (possibly requiring a parry).

As I was heading home, my axes actually wore out, and left me punching an asksvin! Not long after that, all hell broke loose, and I got lost, but I was able to make it home...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEtmbcxfA4Y

[Zombits]

i love melee, but in ashlands I cant even party a warrior with top gear. now you got him, 3 twitchers, voltures, archers, etc. So I climb a rock and keep smashing with demolisher, knockback everything. would die from 2 straight hit from anything in max tank.

Not the way I enjoy melee, so back to mage and 3 eitr food, wild staff and all.

For this biome it's about running and jumping all the time. Being able to spam attacks with low stamina makes magic op, can't see anything close in melee or range

[Faceplant]

Originally posted by Zombits:

i love melee, but in ashlands I cant even party a warrior with top gear. now you got him, 3 twitchers, voltures, archers, etc. So I climb a rock and keep smashing with demolisher, knockback everything. would die from 2 straight hit from anything in max tank.

Not the way I enjoy melee, so back to mage and 3 eitr food, wild staff and all.

For this biome it's about running and jumping all the time. Being able to spam attacks with low stamina makes magic op, can't see anything close in melee or range

I'm curious what you would have done as a mage in the situation I got into around 14:40 in the video? I eventually decided to high-tail it, but I'm sure I could have finished it if my axes had survived.

And then I came to the back door of my fortress, with lava between me and the only way in! That was fun...

[luponix]

Originally posted by Faceplant8:

Originally posted by Zombits:

i love melee, but in ashlands I cant even party a warrior with top gear. now you got him, 3 twitchers, voltures, archers, etc. So I climb a rock and keep smashing with demolisher, knockback everything. would die from 2 straight hit from anything in max tank.

Not the way I enjoy melee, so back to mage and 3 eitr food, wild staff and all.

For this biome it's about running and jumping all the time. Being able to spam attacks with low stamina makes magic op, can't see anything close in melee or range

I'm curious what you would have done as a mage in the situation I got into around 14:40 in the video? I eventually decided to high-tail it, but I'm sure I could have finished it if my axes had survived.

And then I came to the back door of my fortress, with lava between me and the only way in! That was fun...

as a mage 14:40 could be resolved by putting down 5 of the staff of wild vines + casting bubble before coming down from the rock and then continously casting vines till everything including valk would be dead.
if the valks takes to long to come down or when enemys are far away i use the ripper arbalest to conserve eitr and time.
the lingering potions for stamina/eitr are fairly cheap but very good value in fights.
Alternatively to deal with the morgen + valkyrie you could summon a troll and then use the time you gain from that to heal/regenerate eitr to summon lots of roots/protect you from the valk if she still goes for you instead of the troll

i have no trouble making the atgeirs work with the fenris armor set.
the server is on hard.
the melee setup i tried was full flametal armor with one upgrade level + ashen cape
and then rotating through carapace buckler + nidhög/frostner/silver sword, krom
I didnt know the klossen existed then

[agreubill]

Full Ashland run complete (normal settings); mostly melee (mistwalker+shield+spinal bow).
---
I'm not sure melee is an issue if you decide to fight, because whatever the stuff you used, you'll aggro metric tons of sh.t (including with magic).
All in all, i tend to prefer the Mistwalker frost effect to the random procs of imbued new weapons (frost is certain and give you more space to handle the horde. And on base dmg, Mistlands weaps are [nearly] equal to Ashlands ones.
I won't argue about some specifics combos (ie nature dual axes) which are very stronk, but not my playstyle).
---
Beside taking fortresses and basically trolling Fader, i didn't use magic (my 1st tries were disapointing and left me the feeling magic wasn't that strong... Or at least the old mistlands staves and the one i've tried from Ashlands are weaks).
---
I agree swapping sets and items isn't that great, but it's bearable : Askv set for runs most of the time (Fenris is not sturdy enough on the long run :P ), whatever you want for magic and Carapace/Flametal for when you stand your ground is OK.
---
Again, that's on standards settings. I'm pretty sure, it's the safe bet to run magic/ranged the more you rise combat difficulty, as mostly anything will OS whatever the armor you wear...

[Faceplant]

Originally posted by luponix:

as a mage 14:40 could be resolved by putting down 5 of the staff of wild vines + casting bubble before coming down from the rock and then continously casting vines till everything including valk would be dead.

I assume you have a fairly high blood magic skill? I see the vines often mentioned as being OP, but I think it's the bubble. I've tried essentially what you're describing, multiple times, and it doesn't work well with a lower blood magic skill.

In order for the vines to work, you have to get into the think of things. If you stay at a distance, of course, the mobs just come at you anyways, so you have to keep them in the vines, and you're essentially playing a (more mobile) tank with the vines doing the offensive work for you.

That's perfectly viable if you have a strong bubble, but if/when it pops, you've very vulnerable, and trying to keep it up (in my experience) is not easy while casting staves, avoiding getting hit, etc, when you're skill it not very high.

In any case, I think you either have to be very mobile and play the ranged game with a bow, or similar, or play a tank, either with heavy melee, or the bubble. Trying to finesse melee when you have half a dozen or more mobs surrounding you is not very viable IMO.

That brings up the issue that I've mentioned several times, which is that you're almost forced into a significant grind to make magic viable. You get the staves late in Mistlands. How are you going to use those in Ashlands with a low skill level? And... you need to take a fortress to get the staff of the wild...

I tried taking my first fortress with a 30ish blood magic level, which took some grinding to get to, and my bubble was pretty much insta-popped when I got in range of the archers. Skellies were useless. The fire staff was useful, but not without a bubble.

I'm sure others have done better, but I have to believe that some form of melee will still be viable in the last biome.

[adritheonly]

Bloody Nidhogg? Just spitballing here but if you're dying, wouldn't you wan't the most powerful swing ever?

[luponix]

i started blood magic in ashlands. the bubble benefits a lot from levels but i didnt have it very high for a long time because its my emergency backup and not a health buffer
in order to not have to spend eitr/health on them instead of more vines

you need a lot of eitr but if you spread out your vines with 2-3 meters inbetween each one then you get quite the zone where you can move around and enemies get stunned/pushed/still get attacked.
that is my main way to avoid damage.

as you said for fortresses or against groups of ranged enemies this doesnt work as well and its easier to solve it by casting 1-2 trolls as a distraction and then adding vines or sniping with the ripper or both.

"play a tank, either with heavy melee, or the bubble. Trying to finesse melee when you have half a dozen or more mobs surrounding you is not very viable IMO."

that is the part that i kinda lamented. it felt like there was no skill expression to strive for.
i will have to go back and test wether the new mace + enchanments + maybe the stagger from its special attack change anything about that

[luponix]

Originally posted by adritheonly:

Bloody Nidhogg? Just spitballing here but if you're dying, wouldn't you wan't the most powerful swing ever?

my issue is that you get hit and it becomes either a diretc war of attrition or about slowly wittling away their group compared to former biomes where if you timed your parries correctly and positioned well the game rewarded that

[Kackstift]

magic has alot of down time and with cloths.. you will be one or two shot by 1 or 2 star enemys..
i would prefer that we have 100 "mana"... at any time after unlocking it.. and the food increases the mana reg rate by alot..
meele is still the best way to deal with enemys in ashlands. As soon you know all attack pattern from the enemys you will shred them. With lighting weapons you have the strongest AOE ingame passive on your weapons.

[Zombits]

Originally posted by Faceplant8:

Originally posted by Zombits:

i love melee, but in ashlands I cant even party a warrior with top gear. now you got him, 3 twitchers, voltures, archers, etc. So I climb a rock and keep smashing with demolisher, knockback everything. would die from 2 straight hit from anything in max tank.

Not the way I enjoy melee, so back to mage and 3 eitr food, wild staff and all.

For this biome it's about running and jumping all the time. Being able to spam attacks with low stamina makes magic op, can't see anything close in melee or range

I'm curious what you would have done as a mage in the situation I got into around 14:40 in the video? I eventually decided to high-tail it, but I'm sure I could have finished it if my axes had survived.

And then I came to the back door of my fortress, with lava between me and the only way in! That was fun...

to answer your question , I don't need to watch that vid. cause I deal with everything with roots, you can plant 5-6 around and everything dies, including morgen Valkyries that dive to attack. using 4 skeletts for blood magic LVL and shield. using staff of frost too