Differences between Ashlands armor sets are weird

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

tl;dr of the topic: "I don't understand why anyone would use other armors when they could just use Flametal"

Here I'm assuming Quality 3 because being able to fully upgrade items within the biome they're released in is for hackers and modders, apparently.

• Embla (-4% movement, 69 armor +130% eitr regen. No set bonus)
  
• Ask (-0% movement, 96 armor. Set bonus: -% stamina usage, +10% pierce damage)
  
• Flametal (-10% movement, 126 armor. +40% lava resistance)

One of the first oddities is the speed. It makes sense for the agile armor that lowers stamina usage to not slow you down, but literal cloth that barely gives you any armor or combat benefits slowing you down half as much as heavy metal armor feels odd to me.

The next are the armor ratings, especially compared to the Mistlands armors and how much enemies deal in the Ashlands. You can always make the cape that gives you +12 armor but even that cape does not make these armors as effective against enemies that deal 160+ damage as Mistlands armor is against enemies that deal 120 damage.

Embla's 69 armor means you will get 1shot even by 1star enemies if you get hit. Not only do you take more than twice as much damage, but Eitr foods cannibalize health gains, so you have maybe 4x less effective health than you would even with Carapace armor. If you want to be a spellcaster in the Ashlands, you have to get used to being a glass cannon that deals less damage than any other playstyle and your defenses boil down to jumping around, spamming a barrier that will get broken in 1 hit, create summons that barely survive 3 hits. You can still get good results from this, but having to jump and kite even basic skeletons is so un-fun I'd rather go with full heavy metal armor and Eitr foods, because the +130% eitr regeneration doesn't actually help that much, since rested bonus and potions already give you +125% regeneration, which means you're giving yourself 4x less survivability for 50% more eitr regeneration.

Ask doesn't slow you and helps with stamina management by quite a large margin (-% movement also affects stamina use so you're basically using 20% less stamina), so it's basically like playing with better carapace armor.

Flamemetal is not as strong in Ashlands as Carapace is in the Mistlands, but compared to the other two, you'll have way more effective health with it. Combined with health foods, you will be practically immortal unless you facetank every single hit or decide to get intimate with starred Warriors. You can still use Eitr and ranged weapons with this armor, you just won't be as mobile or have slightly faster eitr regen, so you're crippling yourself by playing with any other armor.

I particularly don't understand why Eitr armor has to be so weak. Magic allows for cheesy gameplay and trivializes some encounters, but 50% more eitr regen and 5% more movement speed is hardly going to be relevant enough to justify dying instantly to a mild breeze.

Edit: Also, mage armor is so bad that even at max quality it's like you're using Quality 2 Silver armor, making it a pain to use outside of the swamp and black forest lmao

[loppantorkel]

Ask is a lot cheaper than the Flamemetal armour too. I've done most melee with the fully upgraded Ask and the speed and stamina are huge benefits in all situations. *1 are dangerous but doable if careful enough, but so far I've just avoided any *2.

I may be crippling myself with it but it feels good enough. I combine it with doube axes (green upgrade), or the mist sword + flamemetal shield, or crossbow when needed.

[Mineralwasser]

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

Embla's 69 armor means you will get 1shot even by 1star enemies if you get hit. Not only do you take more than twice as much damage, but Eitr foods cannibalize health gains, so you have maybe 4x less effective health than you would even with Carapace armor. If you want to be a spellcaster in the Ashlands, you have to get used to being a glass cannon that deals less damage than any other playstyle and your defenses boil down to jumping around, spamming a barrier that will get broken in 1 hit, create summons that barely survive 3 hits. You can still get good results from this, but having to jump and kite even basic skeletons is so un-fun I'd rather go with full heavy metal armor and Eitr foods, because the +130% eitr regeneration doesn't actually help that much, since rested bonus and potions already give you +125% regeneration, which means you're giving yourself 4x less survivability for 50% more eitr regeneration.

Kek
Armor means nothing to a mage. It is an insignificant value. Health and healthfood mean nothing to this "class". You get ehp with your bubble and your skeletons. And thats more than enough. Even in ashlands where many enemies deal "pickaxe-dmg". Eitr regen is pretty nice with the set. It allows for stuff you couldnt do so easily than with the old set. Like just spawing a new skeleton mid combat because you have that abundance of eitr.

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

Originally posted by Mineralwasser:

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

Embla's 69 armor means you will get 1shot even by 1star enemies if you get hit. Not only do you take more than twice as much damage, but Eitr foods cannibalize health gains, so you have maybe 4x less effective health than you would even with Carapace armor. If you want to be a spellcaster in the Ashlands, you have to get used to being a glass cannon that deals less damage than any other playstyle and your defenses boil down to jumping around, spamming a barrier that will get broken in 1 hit, create summons that barely survive 3 hits. You can still get good results from this, but having to jump and kite even basic skeletons is so un-fun I'd rather go with full heavy metal armor and Eitr foods, because the +130% eitr regeneration doesn't actually help that much, since rested bonus and potions already give you +125% regeneration, which means you're giving yourself 4x less survivability for 50% more eitr regeneration.

Kek
Armor means nothing to a mage. It is an insignificant value. Health and healthfood mean nothing to this "class". You get ehp with your bubble and your skeletons. And thats more than enough. Even in ashlands where many enemies deal "pickaxe-dmg". Eitr regen is pretty nice with the set. It allows for stuff you couldnt do so easily than with the old set. Like just spawing a new skeleton mid combat because you have that abundance of eitr.

Yeah but all the cast animations are basically 5 seconds long so unless you hate living, you are bouncing around on your feather cape for every barrier and skeleton, only to lose it in 1 hit.
Also don't forget that every other armor set can do this... Eitr regen is more than high enough to replenish your bubble, maybe not to spam skeletons every second because of how quickly they die without you reapplying barrier for every hit they take.

[Mineralwasser]

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

Also don't forget that every other armor set can do this... Eitr regen is more than high enough to replenish your bubble, maybe not to spam skeletons every second because of how quickly they die without you reapplying barrier for every hit they take.

So not every armor set can resummon skeletons mid combat. And thats important to keep in mind. I can only say that they live long enough to deal some dmg and keep the enemies busy. No need for bouncing around if you have a functioning army with a very good amount of ehp. Enemies switch aggro very fast to your summons. And this works very well even on very hard in ashlands. Mistlands is different. But we are talking about the new ashlands set. :D

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

Originally posted by Mineralwasser:

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

Also don't forget that every other armor set can do this... Eitr regen is more than high enough to replenish your bubble, maybe not to spam skeletons every second because of how quickly they die without you reapplying barrier for every hit they take.

So not every armor set can resummon skeletons mid combat. And thats important to keep in mind. I can only say that they live long enough to deal some dmg and keep the enemies busy. No need for bouncing around if you have a functioning army with a very good amount of ehp. Enemies switch aggro very fast to your summons. And this works very well even on very hard in ashlands. Mistlands is different. But we are talking about the new ashlands set. :D

You can use 100 eitr and 5 seconds to summon a skelet that will deal 50 damage if it actually hits something and doesn't get pushed out of its clunky animation, or you can just spend 35 eitr on shooting an AoE fireball. If you could summon skeleton archers reliably it'd maybe be a bit better, but as much as I want skelets to be viable they are worse than every other option in the game, and it doesn't help that they take up to 40% of your current health to summon.
They just get stuck on terrain, they lag behind if you move anywhere, and as soon as they leave your immediate AoE and stop getting barrier, they die. There's no way to heal them either. Oh and they vaporize if they touch lava or water.

They're the only spell that requires more than 1 Eitr food without a decent amount of levels and they need way too much babysitting to be useful and come with too much investment to be worth it as much as I love the necromancer fantasy. The best results I got with them is ironically if I let them wail on enemies from behind while I facetank, but that's not what a mage should be doing. Even their 210 damage swings at max blood magic don't matter because they miss 90% of their hits unless you hand feed them their targets, but there's no direct immobilize spell.

[brown29knight]

I have found that a mage with the staff of the wild is quite powerful in the ashlands. Each of the summoned roots can immobilize foes, and do decent damage. The roots cannot hurt you, so you summon a bunch close together, then get close enough that foes run in, get pounded on, immobilized, and beaten to death. I easily took out Lord Rito this way. He could never get close enough to attack me.

Skelet also should work well in group play, with a tank taking hits and holding foes there for the skelets to swing at.

And don't forget the Trollstav. That thing is a huge tank. It only hits as hard as a normal troll, but it has 2k HP. That'll keep most foes locked on it long enough for your roots to clear it all out.

Flame metal is the tank armor set. It works well on any melee build to let you soak up the hits. The Ask set's bonus to pierce damage makes it the armor of choice for archers or crossbowmen. The Embia set is best for dedicated mages, who focus on shielding other players.

These armors were obviously created with party play in mind. For solo play, the Embia set is dangerous to use, as a lucky spread shot from a starred marksman could pop your shield and kill you in the same attack (multiple arrows can hit, 1st breaks shields, 2nd/3rd kill) and that is only one example of what could surprise you out there.

The Ask set is nowhere near as risky, as the stamina bonuses and the move speed will usually let you escape situations that the flamemetal user would have to fight. (Morgen, for example, can be outrun with the Ask set, but not always with flamemetal) The Ask set also lets you use stronger health food with the same effective stamina, which may make up for the armor difference. (that 30 armor difference will only be 30 less damage on hits of 252+ base damage, which is 1* foe territory on normal difficulty. For normal foes, the damage difference is closer to 10-15 points, and twitchers are even less)

So the Ask set is usable in solo play, with a more mobile play style. The Embia set is likely not viable solo, but it is also not needed for a mage.

As to cloth slowing you down, have you ever tried to move in heavy winter clothing or men's formal wear? There is extremely restrictive clothing out there, and the Embia set may have to be restrictive to hold the runic patterns that help with etir regeneration.

Keep in mind, that, other than the Ask set bonus, you can freely mix pieces. A solo mage may use the flamemetal greaves and helm, and the Embia chest, to get a set of armor with some etir regen, and more armor then the Ask set, while having more movespeed than pure flamemetal. Mixed armor sets, and mixing magic in with melee, is a very viable playstyle in the ashlands.

[Mineralwasser]

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

Originally posted by Mineralwasser:

So not every armor set can resummon skeletons mid combat. And thats important to keep in mind. I can only say that they live long enough to deal some dmg and keep the enemies busy. No need for bouncing around if you have a functioning army with a very good amount of ehp. Enemies switch aggro very fast to your summons. And this works very well even on very hard in ashlands. Mistlands is different. But we are talking about the new ashlands set. :D

You can use 100 eitr and 5 seconds to summon a skelet that will deal 50 damage if it actually hits something and doesn't get pushed out of its clunky animation, or you can just spend 35 eitr on shooting an AoE fireball. If you could summon skeleton archers reliably it'd maybe be a bit better, but as much as I want skelets to be viable they are worse than every other option in the game, and it doesn't help that they take up to 40% of your current health to summon.
They just get stuck on terrain, they lag behind if you move anywhere, and as soon as they leave your immediate AoE and stop getting barrier, they die. There's no way to heal them either. Oh and they vaporize if they touch lava or water.

They're the only spell that requires more than 1 Eitr food without a decent amount of levels and they need way too much babysitting to be useful and come with too much investment to be worth it as much as I love the necromancer fantasy. The best results I got with them is ironically if I let them wail on enemies from behind while I facetank, but that's not what a mage should be doing. Even their 210 damage swings at max blood magic don't matter because they miss 90% of their hits unless you hand feed them their targets, but there's no direct immobilize spell.

These skeletons are required depending on the difficulty. Enemies aggro them and spending eitr for another bubble is of course required. This can combo quite well when the other skeletons get another bubble as well. If you for example play on very hard this makes ashlands a walk in the park. And it is literally a walk in the park. And thats because the skeletons require walking. But you are a slow walking wall of doom that can destroy anything in its path. And you will see that a fireball doesnt do much in ashlands on very hard with the lifepool the enemies have. The biggest advantage of ashlands for the skeletons is the flat surface. Now you can actually play with them. In mistlands it was not possible because of the elevation.
Ashlands gave another staff that makes skeletons even better. You get staff of the wild and your cannon fodder and the vines that are near the skeletons will demolish the enemies targeting the skeletons. So you dont have to kite enemies to the vines.
Droping a skeleton and running away is also effective.

It is different if you play on easy and normal. Having teammates is different too. Because you have different cannon fodder than. :D

[IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII]

Originally posted by Mineralwasser:

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

You can use 100 eitr and 5 seconds to summon a skelet that will deal 50 damage if it actually hits something and doesn't get pushed out of its clunky animation, or you can just spend 35 eitr on shooting an AoE fireball. If you could summon skeleton archers reliably it'd maybe be a bit better, but as much as I want skelets to be viable they are worse than every other option in the game, and it doesn't help that they take up to 40% of your current health to summon.
They just get stuck on terrain, they lag behind if you move anywhere, and as soon as they leave your immediate AoE and stop getting barrier, they die. There's no way to heal them either. Oh and they vaporize if they touch lava or water.

They're the only spell that requires more than 1 Eitr food without a decent amount of levels and they need way too much babysitting to be useful and come with too much investment to be worth it as much as I love the necromancer fantasy. The best results I got with them is ironically if I let them wail on enemies from behind while I facetank, but that's not what a mage should be doing. Even their 210 damage swings at max blood magic don't matter because they miss 90% of their hits unless you hand feed them their targets, but there's no direct immobilize spell.

These skeletons are required depending on the difficulty. Enemies aggro them and spending eitr for another bubble is of course required. This can combo quite well when the other skeletons get another bubble as well. If you for example play on very hard this makes ashlands a walk in the park. And it is literally a walk in the park. And thats because the skeletons require walking. But you are a slow walking wall of doom that can destroy anything in its path. And you will see that a fireball doesnt do much in ashlands on very hard with the lifepool the enemies have. The biggest advantage of ashlands for the skeletons is the flat surface. Now you can actually play with them. In mistlands it was not possible because of the elevation.
Ashlands gave another staff that makes skeletons even better. You get staff of the wild and your cannon fodder and the vines that are near the skeletons will demolish the enemies targeting the skeletons. So you dont have to kite enemies to the vines.
Droping a skeleton and running away is also effective.

It is different if you play on easy and normal. Having teammates is different too. Because you have different cannon fodder than. :D

That's all fair and good but does playing on Very Hard also affect the knockback? Because 9/10 times in a combat scenario I see the skeletons are just blown away by a light breeze before they can land their attack, and if they do, the knockback is enough to move the enemy out of their range. The same situation applies for Staff of the Wild, where the immobilize doesn't even matter because one hit from the vine will knock most enemies except maybe Morgen out of the range of a vine. If you're baiting enemies into the range of your vines, you don't even need skeletons, because you can place 3 vines for the same cost as 1 skeleton, enemies don't target them but they can still tank ranged hits for you, they block pathfinding, they immobilize enemies and they deal far more damage.

That said, none of this is really contingent on having an extra 50% eitr regeneration, and if you decide to give enemies 3x more health and damage which makes only passive cheesy gameplay possible, it's more a statement about gameplay balance than the state of armors.

[Mineralwasser]

Originally posted by IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII:

That's all fair and good but does playing on Very Hard also affect the knockback? Because 9/10 times in a combat scenario I see the skeletons are just blown away by a light breeze before they can land their attack, and if they do, the knockback is enough to move the enemy out of their range. The same situation applies for Staff of the Wild, where the immobilize doesn't even matter because one hit from the vine will knock most enemies except maybe Morgen out of the range of a vine. If you're baiting enemies into the range of your vines, you don't even need skeletons, because you can place 3 vines for the same cost as 1 skeleton, enemies don't target them but they can still tank ranged hits for you, they block pathfinding, they immobilize enemies and they deal far more damage.

That said, none of this is really contingent on having an extra 50% eitr regeneration, and if you decide to give enemies 3x more health and damage which makes only passive cheesy gameplay possible, it's more a statement about gameplay balance than the state of armors.

What kind of problem do you have with knockback? I think it is the same through all difficulties. So what does it matter? As said. They dont need to attack. If they land a hit. Thats nice. If they dont that is ok too. They are just cannon fodder to get more ehp as a mage. And i am grateful for this option. And now there are tools with a bigger eitrpool that replenishes faster to support it. it´s great.

To come back to the earlier point. Naturally you summon the skeletons before a stroll through ashlands and you occasionally cast a bubble to keep that buff. So i dont need to resummon immediatly.
The thing with the vines depends on difficulty again. If i play on very hard i need to bait enemies a few times into them. So here we have the running and jumping again. You dont need it with summoned skeletons that keep the enemies at a certain point where you can throw your vines. Makes the stroll 100& more enjoyable. And the company is nice too. But the undead folk does not talk so much.

But i think we run around in circles if it comes to that stuff. You do you and i do mine. (just 2 different subjective opinions which are totally fine)
I can only add something else to the armor topic.

Mage -> nice at it is. Running in robes is more difficult than in skintight pants. So maybe that is the point with the 4% penalty. I dont mind it. The improved eitrregen feels really good with the new food options.

Ask -> very nice set that opens the new playstyle for ashlands. (Sometimes running than fighting) 10% is good for bows and crossbows. Helps a bit against the enemies that are mostly resistant against pierce. A little buff to armorvalue would be nice.

Flametal -> jeah it is heavy armor... the heat resistance is underwhelming. Doesnt matter so much if one dies in 1 second or in 1 & 1/2 second in lava. On the other hand it gives a bit more time in the water. But there are not so many times someone would swim in ashlands. It is insane that root harnesk is still good combined with other parts of armor against pierce. Flametal helm + flametal greaves + root harnesk -> feels almost like immunity against pierce.

[Faceplant]

@Mineralwasser. I don't know what Ashlands you're strolling through, but everything you're describing seems to be restricted to combatting single, or just a few mobs, which is likely a non-issue for most in any armor / build, and is rare on strolls through Ashlands.

What do you do when things truly get hot (no pun intended). You can't pump skellies out when multiple other mobs are on your tail, and you can't contain multiple mobs in vines. Those two tools will get you through the easy situations, when they're likely not needed, but they (in my experience) become mostly useless when things really get tough.

[Mineralwasser]

Originally posted by Faceplant8:

@Mineralwasser. I don't know what Ashlands you're strolling through, but everything you're describing seems to be restricted to combatting single, or just a few mobs, which is likely a non-issue for most in any armor / build, and is rare on strolls through Ashlands.

What do you do when things truly get hot (no pun intended). You can't pump skellies out when multiple other mobs are on your tail, and you can't contain multiple mobs in vines. Those two tools will get you through the easy situations, when they're likely not needed, but they (in my experience) become mostly useless when things really get tough.

That all depends. I am more a person that likes to prepare more to reduce risks. And to reduce risks you need some rules you stick to. One is dont fight a fight you can´t win.

I can only speak from previous situations. One particular comes to mind. Typical ashlands situation when you get overrun after/in a bigger fight. I think a valk appeared and eitrpool didnt look so good. Skellies have been roughed up with shields down. I do as i always do in ashlands and before. Running and reseting if possible. Better to fight another day. So you guys know when ... hits the fan and know when to run. I do to. For that i have eikthyr. I think another great pick to even use 3x eitrfood. Back (cut) to the chase. :D no pun intended. You cant get rid of a valk that easily. For me to get away was to start running while the cannonfodder died. Dropped a skeleton for the mobs chasing and got away. You know the terrain and possible safe locations.

I can only suggest to test it for yourself and watch how enemies switch aggro to skeletons. It´s pretty good. To end my comment. Things only get out of control if you give up control and rush things. And you cant let that happen if you play on very hard. On very hard there are not many "easy" fights. Even a valk can kill you fast if you play it wrong. As an approaching wall of doom i have all the time in the world to stroll from point a to point b in ashlands. And i cant do it otherwise because i dont have stamina with 3x eitrfood. :D (Only time running is with eykthir)

[Faceplant]

My point is not if you can survive, but what you can survive. Most times you can get away when things get out of hand, sometimes you can't, but if you can survive more, you can make more progress than if you have to run away from every major fight.

The strategies that I keep seeing for mage, and that I've tried myself, seem very strong in certain situations, but they (as we say in programming) don't scale well.

[Mineralwasser]

Originally posted by Faceplant8:

My point is not if you can survive, but what you can survive. Most times you can get away when things get out of hand, sometimes you can't, but if you can survive more, you can make more progress than if you have to run away from every major fight.

The strategies that I keep seeing for mage, and that I've tried myself, seem very strong in certain situations, but they (as we say in programming) don't scale well.

Hm, i can take the average crowd of mixed charred with additional asksvins on very hard with the doom stroll in the open waste of the ashlands. A Valk requires focus. So either a good pull or few other enemies (like 2handed charred) to get a valk down fast. Morgen is not the problem mixed into the general crowd of asksvins and charred. The AOE from the Morgen deals good dmg to everything. (They are mostly the last standing enemy)

Like brown29knight said. You need to take care of projectiles. Prioritizing archers is also important in these fights. I can deal with them. A good placed vine helps blocking the projectiles.

On the other hand i cant take a fortress head on. For example taking the ram to the door/wall and destroying it. The moment the door/wall falls enemies shoot very fast and i would get demolished. Bubble cant take it. I can take the fortress with the doomstroll if i had destroyed the wall/door with the catapult from far away.

I can´t mine flametal nodes without being in a weak position. Skeletons just run into lava and die. Being an easy target for ranged enemies is not so nice.

Skeletons can be used at the start of the fader fight for easy vines. But i would not resummon them in this fight because of the fissure. So it would be back to run and gun with the vines.

That would be some of the stuff i encountered in ashlands playing on very hard as a mage that is more about what i can survive and what not. I hope that goes in the direction you were thinking. What kind of strategies are you referencing?

[Sly-Scale]

Flametal is old-fashioned might. Taking less damage and blocking more punishment is a good strategy for when the battles don't get too big, or when you've got a convenient rock to fall back to. Definitely wear a set for mining Flametal, since those gobs of lava can spawn under your basalt platforms and blast you into the lava.

Ask armor is like troll leather armor: serviceable durability, while giving you an edge in picking your fights. Your movement speed affects jump and dodging costs. A small amount, but 10 stamina saved is 10 stamina saved. Plus you'll spend less time sprinting. Add an Askvin cloak, and you might not have to sprint in battle. Just regenerate your stamina, and strike when you're topped off.

The magic robes are more for if you're with friends and they can cover you. Sure, you can be a pretty solid glass cannon under a bubble's protection, but it only takes two shots to break the shield and then break you. Sure, the robes slow you down when they should be light stuff to run in... but you try running in bathroom robes over charred sticks without the stiff boots to smash them.

Me, I prefer Ask armor. Nice and lightweight, great for escapes and for gathering. But I'm also biased, because I've got two friends who swear by Flametal. They can handle the frontline, while I stay out of harm's way with a bow and polearm.

[Zombits]

mage armor is to be used with shield bubble . Use light armor knowing you will be one shot in plains and after.