Why Is The World Pre-Generated?

[Majorita]

So today I learned that Valheim's gameworld is not fully randomized, there's a pre-baked heightmap that is the world and when you generate a new world, you get a chunk of that to call your own.

My question is: why? I would love to hear from a developer.

[vinyblaster]

That is so not how it works.

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by Majorita:

So today I learned that Valheim's gameworld is not fully randomized, there's a pre-baked heightmap that is the world and when you generate a new world, you get a chunk of that to call your own.

My question is: why? I would love to hear from a developer.

where'd you learn that from?
got a link?

separately, you used one of those valheim seed/map generator websites before ?

[Mharr]

That is, effectively, how it works. There's a fixed overall heightmap and arrangement of coastlines, mountains are always mountains then rivers and other biomes are painted onto that in an arrangement unique to each world.

We don't know why they went for this algorithm exactly, but in general terms the reason the 'random' terrain is pre-determined is the same reason that wind and weather are pre-determined. That's just how 'random' numbers work in computing, you have to take extra steps to make them not repeat like this. It's why you can use randomisers to create consistent landscapes in the first place.

Mathematically, a 'truly' random version of this algorithm would be equally pre-determined, but spread over a much larger probability space so we'd never notice the overlaps. That would use higher precision numbers and so be more expensive to run.

The meta-maps are only hosted on the Discord afaik, and Discord intend to stop allowing external file links so I've copied them to gdrive. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YLeYJ7jPDvPVQmJBAn8uEow-pvGBSmAu?usp=sharing

[knighttemplar1960]

I can chime in a bit on this too. Even if you use the exact same seed for another game the map you get isn't perfectly identical to the previous one. I found this out by accident when I found what I thought would be a perfect location for a base and messed up the terrain badly enough that I decided to restart using the same seed.

When I got into the new world with the same seed the terrain wasn't exactly as it was before. The mouth of a river was off by 1 tile from previous. Large boulders had shifted by a tile or 2 and the flat spot that was perfect for a base was no longer perfectly flat. It had some slight ridges that were either 1/2 tile higher or lower than previous. This made that spot not perfect as it was previously but I made it work.

[Mharr]

Yeah it seems like a lot of the smaller details and points of interest aren't related to the world seed at all and are just generated on the fly and saved to disk. Honestly the whole thing feels like it just came together on a 'whatever works' basis without much long term planning.

[seven]

Perhaps it is pre-generated because it would take an annoyingly long time to generate your own.

[Majorita]

While I do appreciate the 'hows' listed in this thread, I am more concerned with the 'why' because in many ways it feels like the worst of both worlds, and I was deeply concerned when I read earlier today on the store page:

Originally posted by store page:

“The basic functionality of the game will remain pretty much the same, except Biome-specific gameplay challenges. What we will add is a ton of more content in the form of new biomes, new enemies, new bosses, and new materials to find. We want to expand the crafting system with new crafting stations, and more recipes. We also want to add more types of weapons and build-pieces so you can further customize your viking stronghold, and make it withstand new threats. In addition, we also plan to add more unique locations and events for you to find in the world of Valheim.”

... Which indicates that they think the current world generation method is good and not liable to change, but to my mind it seems to me like it needs a lot of work and is... highly questionable in my opinion.

My reasoning is that it seems the worst of both worlds.

In a fully fixed world you can really meticulously plan out the world and have a balanced experience that fits exactly what you want the player to see, this lets you control biome placement etc. You however lose the unique qualities of random world generation.

In a totally random world, you have no control over how biomes generate and so on and have no idea really beyond hoping for the best that a world you generate turns out to be a satisfying one for the player. However, players get the opportunity to play in unique worlds that are totally different from one another even if sometimes similarities may arise just from how the world generates or because of prefab locations (like dungeons and so on).

Valheim, sort of has a fixed world in that you can apparently look up the pre-baked heightmap and see the entire world, and then see that your own world is basically, in some way predetermined, excepting of course some features.

However, because biomes and stuff are all still random or at least fairly random, you're also not assured a particularly good experience exploring the swamp, you're not guaranteed you'll have enough crypts to get enough iron to make anything useful, you might get boss altars scattered half across the map.

So I would argue that Valheim has a lose/lose system where you don't get uniqueness and you don't get the balance benefits of a true fixed map.

I just find it uninteresting to know that people are so familiar with the map as we know it that we have names for locations (like the big mountains for instance). I just think that takes a lot away from the experience of the exploration, and knowing about this really tarnished a lot of my enjoyment.

Originally posted by Mharr:

Yeah it seems like a lot of the smaller details and points of interest aren't related to the world seed at all and are just generated on the fly and saved to disk. Honestly the whole thing feels like it just came together on a 'whatever works' basis without much long term planning.

This is how I feel basically. It feels like a really quick, cheap n dirty method of generating worlds for the player. I can't deny it is effective, I just wanna make that clear. It IS an effective system, clearly. I don't think it is particularly great though and it has what I feel are a lot of critical downsides, in a game based around adventure and exploration...

[Mharr]

FWIW it is possible to pre-generate an entire custom world to any map you prefer, there are a few of those on the Nexus (Europe, Azeroth, Middle Earth) plus world generator mods with more varied output than vanilla.

[Majorita]

Originally posted by Mharr:

FWIW it is possible to pre-generate an entire custom world to any map you prefer, there are a few of those on the Nexus (Europe, Azeroth, Middle Earth) plus world generator mods with more varied output than vanilla.

Oh like we actually have access to that, and it's possible to manipulate generation with mods? Alright, okay, I guess that's nice at least... maybe I'll try doing that when I finish my current playthrough.

[Zep Tepi]

The fixed height map thing isn't quite as static as it sounds. I played two different runs in what should have been the same area according to the height map, but I didn't even recognize the place from one game to the other, and it wasn't just the biomes. The water level was different, so what appeared as two separate islands in one game ended up as a large open meadow with a few small ponds in the second.

So unless a player knows that's how it works and is deliberately looking for it in the map generator, they are unlikely to notice just by playing the game.

[Bing Bong]

Lmfao okay OP

I think the better question for something like this is. And this is rhetorical,

Do you actually play this game, and discover enough about each variation of every seed you have joined. To see a degree of similarity between those variations, that it ruins your game play?

[Mharr]

You don't have to recognise the landscape from one world to another for this to be disappointing. Once you understand it you know it will only ever generate a limited set of similar island chains, no continents, Argonaths, mountain ranges, canyons or crater lakes. This is why https://www.nexusmods.com/valheim/mods/2479 exists.

Procedural oatmeal is a problem all world generators stuggle with.

[Syhmortis]

The one thing I hated about Minecraft is when the world was generated as you explore and it caused all sorts of hiccups for all users on the server.

I think pre-gen "random" worlds is great and if they are small, then you can pack more detail than a world that never ends.

[Faceplant]

Seems like this is another case of learning a bit too much about how the sausage is made.

I've played over 3000 hours and never noticed anything related to this. If you don't know about it (and even if you do and ignore it), I can't imagine this really makes any difference. The only way this makes a difference to me is that I have a couple of very tall mountains that I've found, and it's a little disappointing that they might not be entirely random.

What bugs me much more are the fine details that are all the same. Pretty much everything is made up of a few models with very little variation. I know, for example, that if I want to sleep in one of the small towers in black forest, I can clear the interior, put my bed against the back wall, a fire next to the door, with both sheltered even in a rainstorm. The rocks, trees, pretty much everything is cookie-cutter.

I understand why the game is made this way. Good random generation is not an easy problem. For what the game is, I think it's a reasonable balance.

[vinyblaster]

I have no idea how this thread managed to pick up. The original message is not even right and all messages seem to be talking about something different. Not even clear what the OP is complaining about.