On hardest setting, blocking = death

[idiotsavant]

Loving playing the new update on the hardest combat setting so far, except that blocking seems to be broken. Enemies stagger you so easily, even with the black metal tower shield (which unless i'm wrong has the most blocking power) and highest level armor normal wolves are too much to handle if I make the mistake of blocking. If I don't block and just dodge, or take the hit without getting staggered I'm just fine lol.

[Veseljko]

on very hard settings you deal just 70% dmg, while enemies deal 200% dmg. They are faster too.

https://valheim.fandom.com/wiki/World_Modifiers?so=search

So wolf deals 70 dmg on normal settings - 140 on very hard
Black metal tower shield at lvl 3 blocks 116 - 174 dmg.

Yeah... try to dodge instead of blocking.

[Psojed]

The reason you are getting staggered when blocking is because of your Stagger Bar. That orange bar that appears when you get hit or block. According to wiki:
- when you block, Stagger is getting calculated BEFORE armor reduction is applied.
- meanwhile when you get hit, Stagger is getting calculated AFTER armor reduction is applied.
That explains why a normal hit won't stagger you, while a blocked hit will. It's been broken like this since the Hearth and Home update.

That leads us to the question of "best shield". Black Metal Tower Shield does have the most raw blocking power. But if you Parry, it multiplies your shield's Block Power by 1.5x for normal shields, or by 2.5x for bucklers.
So if you can reliably Parry attacks, even Black Metal Shield has more blocking power than the Black Metal Tower Shield thanks to the Parry multiplier. Carapace Buckler has the most blocking power on Parry, which is 225-337 at upgrade lvl 3 (the exact number depends on your Blocking skill level - hover your shield and check the Yellow number behind Block Power).

Your Stagger Bar maximum is based on 40% of your max HP, so having the best 3 HP foods and having eaten them only a short while ago will allow you to block stronger attacks.
Unfortunately, thanks to the Stagger bug described above, on Very Hard you won't be able to Block the strongest monsters.

---

PS: Some more digging on the wiki, it says Block Power uses Armor calculation. That means, it's not just damage - block power = result.

For example, if a 0-star wolf on Very Hard hits for 140 physical damage, and the player blocks with a Black Metal Tower Shield with 0 Blocking skill (it'll be 116 Block Power), then only ~97.8 damage will be blocked, and ~42.2 damage will go through.

42.2 damage will be further reduced by armor, so that on its own would be fine. However, Stagger Bar exists, so you also need to have at least 108 maximum HP to be able to block this attack. But because the attack values of monsters are randomized, to be safe you need to have higher Blocking skill or more maximum HP, ideally both.

[Joe Brainer]

Probably time to start leveling block up now I guess.
Last night I encountered a 2 Star seeker in an infested mine that flew into the "safe zone"
and two tapped me. His flying attack staggered me through a level 3 black metal tower shield at lvl 38 block.

[Psojed]

2-star seeker's weakest attack would be the bite for 180 damage, so 360 damage on Very Hard.
On Very Hard, Parrying with 100 Blocking skill using Carapace Buckler LVL3 (337 Block Power), you must have more than 240 max HP to not get staggered.
On Very Hard, Blocking with 100 Blocking skill using Black Metal Tower Shield LVL3 (174 Block Power), you will always get staggered no matter what. You would need 465 max HP to not be staggered.

PS: but his claw attacks are even stronger :)

[Zep Tepi]

This is reasserting my theory that if you don't parry then you're better off not using shields at all. I've been trying a Tyr run and both times I've died have been because my tower shield wasn't doing enough on hard mode. I'm sure it gets worse on very hard.

I'm better off dodging or strafing, trying to not get hit at all, and beefing up the armor more than I've been used to on normal. When you're blocking, you're not attacking and you're still losing stamina, and likely to get staggered. Not worth it.

[Mharr]

As a buckler player I had no idea the stagger calculations were in such a bizarre state. Have the developers acknowleged this as a bug?

[Psojed]

I think the devs added the mechanics in this way on purpose, trying to make two-handed weapons more viable. Perhaps someone knows of an official reply?
But as far as I'm aware, it didn't work. Majority of players are still using 1-handed + shield since the H&H update

Originally posted by Zep Tepi:

...

Yes, if your goal is just to avoid damage, might aswell Dodge like you said. Dodging is also superior when facing multiple attacks at once.

But if you fail a Dodge, you take the full brunt. If you fail a Parry, you still perform a Block. Not to mention that Blocking is just holding down a button.
vs.
Dodging is holding down a button, a directional key, pressing the dodge button and being aware of your surroundings so that you don't roll into a wall. Shields are way more newbie friendly :)

But more importantly, Parrying staggers the enemy. They take double damage from all incoming attacks while staggered. Tower Shields can't stagger the enemy, and they all give a nasty -20% movement speed penalty, which makes all Tower Shields bad, and you should only be using Bucklers or normal Shields.

This gets emphasized in multiplayer, where one successful Parry can allow multiple players to absolutely destroy the target.

[hazelrah]

Originally posted by Psojed:

2-star seeker's weakest attack would be the bite for 180 damage, so 360 damage on Very Hard.
On Very Hard, Parrying with 100 Blocking skill using Carapace Buckler LVL3 (337 Block Power), you must have more than 240 max HP to not get staggered.
On Very Hard, Blocking with 100 Blocking skill using Black Metal Tower Shield LVL3 (174 Block Power), you will always get staggered no matter what. You would need 465 max HP to not be staggered.

PS: but his claw attacks are even stronger :)

and best hp foods in game can only get you to 245

[Psojed]

Actually to 270. You start with 25, and add 245 :)

[Zep Tepi]

Originally posted by Psojed:

I think the devs added the mechanics in this way on purpose, trying to make two-handed weapons more viable. Perhaps someone knows of an official reply?
But as far as I'm aware, it didn't work. Majority of players are still using 1-handed + shield since the H&H update :trolol:

Originally posted by Zep Tepi:

...

Yes, if your goal is just to avoid damage, might aswell Dodge like you said. Dodging is also superior when facing multiple attacks at once.

But if you fail a Dodge, you take the full brunt. If you fail a Parry, you still perform a Block. Not to mention that Blocking is just holding down a button.
vs.
Dodging is holding down a button, a directional key, pressing the dodge button and being aware of your surroundings so that you don't roll into a wall. Shields are way more newbie friendly :)

But more importantly, Parrying staggers the enemy. They take double damage from all incoming attacks while staggered. Tower Shields can't stagger the enemy, and they all give a nasty -20% movement speed penalty, which makes all Tower Shields bad, and you should only be using Bucklers or normal Shields.

This gets emphasized in multiplayer, where one successful Parry can allow multiple players to absolutely destroy the target.

Yep, this is exactly why I'm an atgeir convert. I'm less likely to get hit if I stagger them before they close in.

When I have mods running, I've got dodge on double tap. If not then it's more a matter of just trying to get out of the way. More like "That archer is due for another arrow, so I'm going to walk sideways now." I'm not twitchy enough for parries, so I'm also not twitchy enough to take full avantage of i-frames. Luckily, Valheim provides alternatives.

[bacon]

yeah, i have no interest in the combat slider. the health (and related stagger limits), shield block power, and damage of the player and enemies are balanced to make blocking and rolling both valid solutions to defense. when you crank the difficulty up, it makes the game only work if you roll for defense.

[ling.speed]

I'd not expect to be able to parry every enemy, especially while being new to a biome, but all this makes hardcore pretty ridiculous yea. There is no good way for us to judge whether we can parry or ruin whole run by being one shot without specific knowleage of numbers.

Another thing is food, parry life is 3x red food, no other option allowed. And its not even like parry is OP or something, if you get swarmed it looses its strength fast.

Originally posted by Zep Tepi:

This is reasserting my theory that if you don't parry then you're better off not using shields at all. I've been trying a Tyr run and both times I've died have been because my tower shield wasn't doing enough on hard mode. I'm sure it gets worse on very hard.
(...)
Yep, this is exactly why I'm an atgeir convert. I'm less likely to get hit if I stagger them before they close in.

2 handers (like your Aetgir) are great at parry. For example at blackmetal level, your polearm is only ~12% weaker than shield (before upgreads).

[ling.speed]

Originally posted by bacon:

yeah, i have no interest in the combat slider. the health (and related stagger limits), shield block power, and damage of the player and enemies are balanced to make blocking and rolling both valid solutions to defense. when you crank the difficulty up, it makes the game only work if you roll for defense.

Tbh, im playing bo bow hardcore (or played since the nomap makes it really hard to go back to and finish a game, but thats another story). And you can parry at very hard "no problem". You just always need to know the numbers, and consult wiki / spreedsheets if things change, aaand use lots of red food.

So i would not say it does not "work" its just feels worse to play.

[Nerd.Gamer.Dave]

Git Gud. Seriously, Dark Souls logic works somewhat in Valheim combat.

Now how to actually Git Gud:

Shield type MATTERS. Different shields block different amounts of damage, as well as stagger you more or less. Tower Shields are crap. Use them for wall decorations, not combat.

Seriously. Looks like people are talking about black metal tower shields, so I suspect they are playing as tanks trying to soak up damage with armor+shield+HP combo's rather than moving, parrying and not taking a hit in the first place.

Tower shields are garbage. Regardless if made of wood or Black Metal.

Without getting into all the wacky numbers, the shield I prefer the most for fighting packs of wolves is the silvered shield. Plus it looks frikkin cool with blue and white paint.

It's also perfect for killing trolls, werewolves, mosquito's and hunting ghosts in the swamp. Best shield IMO.

Load up on carrot soup, sausages, jam and other foods that increase your stamina instead of going brute force with a tank and you can parry virtually any enemy. Or find the foods that give you the best of both HP and stamina.

Wolves can be fast, but it's just a timing thing to avoid getting ganked. Hit the first three with a parry, then as they are staggered, parry the 4th, then swing your sword 3-4 times, killing it outright or reducing it's health to just one more hit.

Dealing double damage with a fast sword is often way more effective that dealing double damage with a slow 2 handed weapon. Even the abyssal knife is one deadly as heck weapon when maxed out and deals insane damage for tiny amounts of stamina usage.

The abyssal dagger does 4 TIMES damage with a parry instead of x2. So (some of those annoying numbers): this means you can parry a wolf, then deal 100 base damage before any bonuses for 4-6 swings. That's 600+ damage to the staggered wolf, which is insta death to any level wolf on any difficulty (wolves have around 250 HP max for a 2 star).

Shield and sword, or abyssal knife and shield can absolute ROCK entire wolf packs and multiple red eye trolls in 1v1 combat if you know your timing.

Back off, let stamina recover. Repeat. Takes 4-5 rounds of this to kill a pack of wolves, 2-3 trolls, and pretty much anything else you may face.

Even the death-squito's that can one shot you with their annoying needle noses will die in a single hit if you parry them. They circle in a defined pattern before swooping in on you and once you time the parry, you can slaughter those like crazy.

The math and numbers are all wonky, so honestly don't worry about them. Get your stamina up, don't rely on being a damage sponge with high HP. Eat a lot of carrots and high stamina food.

Or go for the good ol' dark souls art of roley-poley and dodge roll.

And don't use tower shields. They stink.

[ling.speed]

Originally posted by NerdgamerDave:

Git Gud. Seriously, Dark Souls logic works somewhat in Valheim combat.

Yeah! Everybody should open excel on seconds screen to git gud and not get blasted to orbit on higher difficulties because that other attack the mob does deals 10damage more which prevents parry.

Without getting into all the wacky numbers

Oh but thats exactly the problem, you have to get wacky with numbers to play. The parry brakepoints on very hard are literally single digit max hp numbers between a good parry and death.

Load up on carrot soup, sausages, jam and other foods that increase your stamina instead of going brute force with a tank and you can parry virtually any enemy.

You are not playing the same game as us if you are suggesting this. You cant play anything other that red food if you want to "git gud" and parry.

Now giving advice is all fine, but you really missed the point of the thread. Try hardcore someday later. We'll welcome your 180 degrees turn on this matter with open arms.

To give you example if you try parrying <no star> Troll with your carrot soup, sausages, and jam with <iron blucker> and troll armour. Depending few other variables you are either half dead, or dead in one hit from full hp.

Its not like its impossible to play or parry on hardcore, its just just silly at times. Literally the git gud Dark Souls bosses are better because you learn by playing, not browsing wiki or abandoning the mechanic altogether.