I think the game really sucks after getting the pickaxe

[Simpson]

i absolutely love chopping down trees and creating chain reactions. i love the the structural integrity and smoke simulation.
however, mining is dull and metal transportation is an incredible chore, even before iron and boats. surtling cores are too rare and/or furnaces and kilns need too many of them.

this game goes from the most relaxing and enjoyable base building game to an absolute chore fest without satisfying mechanics. i just wanted to unlock stone building pieces, but it's not worth it...

and no, installing "teleport everything" is not the solution

[Simpson]

Originally posted by Kalysm:

I think they should have Greydwarves occasionally drop tin or copper. You will kill a ♥♥♥♥ ton of them anyway why not make it more beneficial. They either drop an eye or the metal. Boom its fun again. Or put small stacks in the Chests in their towers ala Crypt chest with iron. I make the bare minimum to get thru bronze. I despise bronze due to the 3 pieces needed to make 1 bar.

that way people could afk farm metals from spawners. i don't know if the devs want to head in the same direction as minecraft.

[blankitosonic]

Maybe a balance for early game its to tin and copper nodes drops x2 or x3 more minerals ...

[Marksman Max]

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Maybe a balance for early game its to tin and copper nodes drops x2 or x3 more minerals ...

My suggestion was to have the Bronze recipe yield twice as much Bronze (two copper ingots plus one tin ingot gives two bronze ingots instead of one). Makes more sense to me, both realistically and from a game design standpoint. It doesn't seem very fair that the Bronze Age is so much harder than the Iron or Silver Ages to get past. Even making the bare minimum in the Bronze Age takes longer than making a full gear set in Iron/Silver.

[Quintium]

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Maybe a balance for early game its to tin and copper nodes drops x2 or x3 more minerals ...

I really don't understand the complaints. Tin and Copper is so easy to get. And utilizing portals (fast travel easy to back to nodes), cart, and karve (depending on locations) makes it so much easier too.

[Gladi8er65]

Originally posted by Simpson:

i absolutely love chopping down trees and creating chain reactions. i love the the structural integrity and smoke simulation.
however, mining is dull and metal transportation is an incredible chore, even before iron and boats. surtling cores are too rare and/or furnaces and kilns need too many of them.

this game goes from the most relaxing and enjoyable base building game to an absolute chore fest without satisfying mechanics. i just wanted to unlock stone building pieces, but it's not worth it...

and no, installing "teleport everything" is not the solution

First let me say I did not read through all the other comments, and my response is based on my own personal experience playing ALL the current content more than a few times... ALL solo, and vanilla, and without any "cheats".... no console commands, or world-hopping...

I have never felt any sense of "monotonous grinding", but I also have never... never crafted, upgraded or worn any Bronze armor... it's not needed... Troll armor is plenty good enough to take you into the swamps or even further, and WITHOUT the movement penalty that comes with the bronze set. This means that I only need to craft the bronze tools etc. (NO huge grind).

Surtling cores are NOT rare.. they are random. I have personally seen crypts that had as many as 20 cores, and I have seen as few as 1... it's random. Doesn;t take long to get the 10 cores needed for the smelter and coal kiln, as well as cores needed for portals.

It costs NOTHING to break down the work stations.. 100% refund of materials, so it makes that smelter and coal kiln "portable"..... Instead of trying to ship all the metals via ship or cart, set up a temporary workshop AT the mining site. I often look for copper nodes that have 2 or 3 nodes fairy close and actually dig out a "safe" workshop UNDER / INSIDE one of the nodes, where I set up my smelter, coal kiln, workbench, fire, even a bed and ofc a portal. After I have smelted some of the materials, I craft the forge so I can craft my bronze tools, and then when I have the tools i need, I can simply pick up all the work stations and carry then to the next mining spot.

Once the metals are made into items, those metal items are not restricted from going through (vanilla) portals.

Cutting out the bronze armor is HUGE, but I also don't make iron armor either... again I ONLY craft the tools / weapons i need. I wear troll armor until I reach the swamps and start on the Root armor, after that I work on wolf armor, which usually keeps me good until I can craft Linen armor.

What I'm trying to say is that there is no real NEED to mine, and craft and upgrade Bronze or Iron armors, and that alone, will save hours of needless grinding. The only real reason I can see to craft those metal armors would be to role-play.

Long story, short.... SKIP all that mining except for tools and weapons. YES, it is definitely a LOT of grinding if a player tries to craft those "metal armors"... so DON'T do that, and you just might enjoy the ride a bit more.

[Marksman Max]

Originally posted by Gladi8er65:

YES, it is definitely a LOT of grinding if a player tries to craft those "metal armors"... so DON'T do that, and you just might enjoy the ride a bit more.

Bronze is an insane time sink (and arguably just a time waster entirely) but Iron Armor definitely has some merit, and isn't too hard to make. 75 Scrap Iron gets you a full set of Level 2 Iron Armor, and is easily enough to take on the Mountains. For the Plains, the Root Harnesk is the UNO reverse card against Deathsquitos and Fuling Spearthrowers. It does make you more vulnerable to Shamans and Torch Fulings, but fire resist pots, waiting until it's raining to clear out villages, or just not getting hit (i.e. archer characters) get around that.

[shadain597]

Originally posted by GunsForBucks:

Don't forget the hoe lets you use stone as well... not as if you can't use stone before iron

Landfill doesn't quite qualify as building in stone, as far as I'm concerned. And that's a whole lot of terraforming you are doing, if your hoe is actually using up a large portion of the stone you collect. IMO, it'd be nice if there were a few tiers of stone, like there are with wood and metals. Like early on have a few "dry stone" building pieces that are around the same strength as wood, with the main advantage being that they don't rot in the rain. And, of course, the unique aesthetics it would provide.

When I say "dry stone," I'm thinking of the low, mortarless walls with irregularly shaped stones closer to the size of a few bricks each and neatly fitted together. The stone piles we can already create actually aren't that far off of what I am thinking of. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_stone

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Maybe a balance for early game its to tin and copper nodes drops x2 or x3 more minerals ...

My suggestion was to have the Bronze recipe yield twice as much Bronze (two copper ingots plus one tin ingot gives two bronze ingots instead of one). Makes more sense to me, both realistically and from a game design standpoint. It doesn't seem very fair that the Bronze Age is so much harder than the Iron or Silver Ages to get past. Even making the bare minimum in the Bronze Age takes longer than making a full gear set in Iron/Silver.

I tend to agree with that, though some of the recipe costs might need to go up a bit to compensate for doubling the bronze yield. But it's been a bit since I had to play through the bronze age myself, so I'm not too sure.

[Marksman Max]

Originally posted by shadain597:

I tend to agree with that, though some of the recipe costs might need to go up a bit to compensate for doubling the bronze yield. But it's been a bit since I had to play through the bronze age myself, so I'm not too sure.

Eh, I'm not too sure about that. Most of the recipe costs are already insanely expensive, especially when upgrades are factored in. For instance, the Bronze Spear costs less than other Bronze weapons to craft (as Spears do in every other metal tier), but the cost to upgrade the Bronze Spear is identical to other Bronze weapons.

A maxed-out Silver Spear costs nine Silver (compared to 40 for the Silver Knife, 160 for the Silver Sword, and 120 for Frostner). A maxed-out Ancient Bark Spear costs 40 Iron (most iron weapons require 80 Iron to fully upgrade). And yet, while the Bronze Spear only requires six Bronze to craft instead of eight (which is only a 25% discount, compared to the 50% for Iron and the 90%+ discount on the Silver spears), the Bronze Spear requires a whopping thirty(!) Bronze to both craft and fully upgrade. That's a total of 90 ingots!

Again, just to reiterate; the Iron Spear needs less than half of that amount of metal, and the Silver Spear needs one tenth of that metal to craft. The ONLY Bronze weapon that is actually cheaper than its later cousins is the Atgeir, which costs the same as other options.

[shadain597]

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Originally posted by shadain597:

I tend to agree with that, though some of the recipe costs might need to go up a bit to compensate for doubling the bronze yield. But it's been a bit since I had to play through the bronze age myself, so I'm not too sure.

Eh, I'm not too sure about that. Most of the recipe costs are already insanely expensive, especially when upgrades are factored in. For instance, the Bronze Spear costs less than other Bronze weapons to craft (as Spears do in every other metal tier), but the cost to upgrade the Bronze Spear is identical to other Bronze weapons.

A maxed-out Silver Spear costs nine Silver (compared to 40 for the Silver Knife, 160 for the Silver Sword, and 120 for Frostner). A maxed-out Ancient Bark Spear costs 40 Iron (most iron weapons require 80 Iron to fully upgrade). And yet, while the Bronze Spear only requires six Bronze to craft instead of eight (which is only a 25% discount, compared to the 50% for Iron and the 90%+ discount on the Silver spears), the Bronze Spear requires a whopping thirty(!) Bronze to both craft and fully upgrade. That's a total of 90 ingots!

Again, just to reiterate; the Iron Spear needs less than half of that amount of metal, and the Silver Spear needs one tenth of that metal to craft. The ONLY Bronze weapon that is actually cheaper than its later cousins is the Atgeir, which costs the same as other options.

That comparison is a weird choice, especially since I didn't argue that ALL recipes need to increase, and "a bit" is vague, but obviously still a lot less than double. Just comparing spears isn't a good way to judge how well balanced bronze is vs other materials. If your point is that spears are weird all on their own, then yes, I agree completely.

I think part of the reason it's like that is because the usefulness of a spear pretty much peaks in the black forest vs trolls. AFAIK trolls are the only enemy actually weak vs piercing (though lox, for example, are effectively weak to it because they resist both slashing and blunt). There's no real reason to have a spear instead of a mace in the swamp or the mountains, and in the mountains it's far more of a pain than it's worth, with all of the elevation issues spears have.

Back to the main topic, bronze sword vs silver sword: 32 bronze vs 160 silver. That's 96 total ore vs 160 total ore, before doubling the bronze yield. Bronze axe, mace, and atgeir all have the same cost of 32, for some odd reason. Iron sword, axe and mace: each are 80 total. Iron atgeir: 120 total. Blackmetal axe and sword are both 80. Atgeir is 120.

Bronze plate cuirass: 23 bronze. Iron scale mail: 50 iron. Wolf armor chest: 50 silver. Padded cuirass: 28 iron. Do I need to go on? Right now bronze recipes do cost more than many other recipes, but nowhere near double.

[blankitosonic]

Originally posted by Quintium:

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Maybe a balance for early game its to tin and copper nodes drops x2 or x3 more minerals ...

I really don't understand the complaints. Tin and Copper is so easy to get. And utilizing portals (fast travel easy to back to nodes), cart, and karve (depending on locations) makes it so much easier too.

Depends on the seed and surely thats why so much complain about the grind , tin are in shores of BF and some seeds dont have BF shores near of meadows
Its that or buff bronze items ... That are very lame for their cost

[blankitosonic]

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Originally posted by Gladi8er65:

YES, it is definitely a LOT of grinding if a player tries to craft those "metal armors"... so DON'T do that, and you just might enjoy the ride a bit more.

Bronze is an insane time sink (and arguably just a time waster entirely) but Iron Armor definitely has some merit, and isn't too hard to make. 75 Scrap Iron gets you a full set of Level 2 Iron Armor, and is easily enough to take on the Mountains. For the Plains, the Root Harnesk is the UNO reverse card against Deathsquitos and Fuling Spearthrowers. It does make you more vulnerable to Shamans and Torch Fulings, but fire resist pots, waiting until it's raining to clear out villages, or just not getting hit (i.e. archer characters) get around that.

Guess you use a good parry shield and dont get any touch from sword fulings ( most common ) and aggro loxes
And Because root set its very bad in mountains specially in caves where ocultists use fire attacks and you have not anti fire wine in that point of the game
Wolf or padded are far better options in plains than root ...

[Marksman Max]

Originally posted by shadain597:

Just comparing spears isn't a good way to judge how well balanced bronze is vs other materials. If your point is that spears are weird all on their own, then yes, I agree completely.

I think part of the reason it's like that is because the usefulness of a spear pretty much peaks in the black forest vs trolls. AFAIK trolls are the only enemy actually weak vs piercing (though lox, for example, are effectively weak to it because they resist both slashing and blunt). There's no real reason to have a spear instead of a mace in the swamp or the mountains, and in the mountains it's far more of a pain than it's worth, with all of the elevation issues spears have.

Well, spears is just one example (and I definitely agree that spears generally are in a weird spot in this game). That being said, it's not even the worst example. I'll get to that later.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Back to the main topic, bronze sword vs silver sword: 32 bronze vs 160 silver. That's 96 total ore vs 160 total ore, before doubling the bronze yield.

The Silver Sword is definitely an odd one to make a comparison with. It's the most expensive weapon in the game, and it's really only good for one specific reason, which is Yagluth (and potentially Bonemass, if you're doing a sword-only run). The best comparison would be something like Draugr Fang as it costs 80 Silver, which is the median metal cost for most weapons between Iron and Blackmetal (i.e. most of them).

Even in that example, it's much easier to mine 160 Silver than it is to mine 64 Copper. Two Silver veins should yield at least 160 Silver and are easy to mine by just digging them out completely and then hitting them four times with an Iron Pickaxe. On the other hand, 64 Copper is the majority of one Copper deposit and takes several days to both excavate and mine, and that's not even counting the 32 Tin you also need for the Copper to be useful.

Also:

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Depends on the seed and surely thats why so much complain about the grind , tin are in shores of BF and some seeds don't have BF shores near of meadows

While Tin is super easy to mine... that's if you can actually find it in the first place. Copper is generally easy to find (but not always); it's just the mining that's the annoying part.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Bronze axe, mace, and atgeir all have the same cost of 32, for some odd reason. Iron sword, axe and mace: each are 80 total. Iron atgeir: 120 total. Blackmetal axe and sword are both 80. Atgeir is 120.

I like how you just stopped calculating the actual metal requirements at this point because it would completely undermine your argument. All of those Bronze weapons cost more than their later counterparts, and that's not even considering how much easier it is to get the later metals. Hell, you'll find more Scrap Iron in Sunken Crypts than you will by mining, and you have to loot Crypts anyway to get the boss item.

The one exception is the Atgeir, which you must have missed because I already said that:

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

The ONLY Bronze weapon that is actually cheaper than its later cousins is the Atgeir, which costs the same as other options.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Bronze plate cuirass: 23 bronze. Iron scale mail: 50 iron. Wolf armor chest: 50 silver. Padded cuirass: 28 iron. Do I need to go on?

Yet again, you just don't calculate the actual metal required and just count the Bronze like it's somehow easier to make than Iron/Wolf Armor. Spoiler alert: it isn't.

23 Bronze is 69 total ingots, and that's a lot harder to get than 50 Scrap Iron. Most Crypts I loot have enough scrap in them to get a full set of Level 2 Iron Armor, and two Crypts should contain at least enough for a maxed set of Iron Armor. And just to reiterate: you have to loot Crypts anyway to get the bones to summon Bonemass, so you're smashing two rocks with one pickaxe.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Right now bronze recipes do cost more than many other recipes, but nowhere near double.

In most cases, no; I'll give you that. However, the particularly bad case I mentioned near the beginning was the Bronze Buckler. This thing is insanely expensive; 25 Bronze to fully upgrade, which means 75 total ingots. The Bronze Buckler is more than three times as expensive as most later shields. The Banded, Silver, and Blackmetal Shields only require 20 metal each. The Iron Buckler needs 25 Iron ingots to fully max, and is the only non-tower shield that "only" costs three times less than the previous buckler. And unlike the Bronze Spear (which is probably crafted by no one, ever), the Bronze Buckler is a necessity for the Swamps if you're a melee class.

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Guess you use a good parry shield and dont get any touch from sword fulings ( most common ) and aggro loxes

My problem with the end-game level stuff is that the best strategy is just not getting hit at all. The Padded Armor isn't worth it whatsoever IMO; the 10% movement penalty makes it more of a hindrance than a benefit, and Fulings still do a ton of damage per hit; more than your health regen can naturally restore by a considerable margin, even with the best food items in the game. If you need to use potions or Forsaken Powers to survive against multiple Fuling attacks with Padded Armor, then it's just not worth using. The Root Harnesk makes you a tank against the most annoying enemies in the game, and everything else is easily dodged.

Case in point; I fought Yagluth with my dad twice. We died quite a bit the first time, but I wanted to try him again with my unarmed character with a maxed Fenris armor set. The second character did considerably better; since some of Yagluth's attacks just hit like a truck regardless (especially those damn homing meteors), I could just run away with the Fenris guy while my Padded character was just getting his ♥♥♥♥ rocked.

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

And Because root set its very bad in mountains specially in caves where ocultists use fire attacks and you have not anti fire wine in that point of the game

Frost Caves are pretty easily cheesed with Ooze Bombs. Both Cultists and Ulvs are Weak to Poison damage, and you can also just throw them at a door that Cultists/Ulvs are behind, and there's absolutely nothing they can do about it.

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Wolf or padded are far better options in plains than root ...

I dunno; I love seeing a Deathsquito hit me, only to deal a whopping 11 damage. Even maxed Padded Armor can't get you a damage reduction that good.

[Quintium]

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Originally posted by Quintium:

I really don't understand the complaints. Tin and Copper is so easy to get. And utilizing portals (fast travel easy to back to nodes), cart, and karve (depending on locations) makes it so much easier too.

Depends on the seed and surely thats why so much complain about the grind , tin are in shores of BF and some seeds dont have BF shores near of meadows
Its that or buff bronze items ... That are very lame for their cost

Exactly why portals/transportation was mentioned. Frankly, you can set up smelters right next to a node and half the battle is done. Or play as a nomad and carry the forge with you as well.
I usually only do 2 or 3 copper nodes max and it is fast to do by take out the ground around them first. Pick a node that is largely visible and utilize the "node explosion". The antler pickaxes are great for that and easy to repair by a quick repair station near by as well. Portal all stones back to base for stone building later, if you are into that.
It really isn't that much of a grind that people seems to make it. Get what you need and you will be in iron quick. Which is a longer grind. More benefit, sure, but bronze is so easy to get thru. Why I still do not understand the complaints

And finding out that the world seed doesn't have black forest near the starter meadows, well, start a new world seed. The game gives you that option (and yes, even in multi-player.) You can find out pretty quick, even before killing first boss.

[blankitosonic]

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

Originally posted by shadain597:

Just comparing spears isn't a good way to judge how well balanced bronze is vs other materials. If your point is that spears are weird all on their own, then yes, I agree completely.

I think part of the reason it's like that is because the usefulness of a spear pretty much peaks in the black forest vs trolls. AFAIK trolls are the only enemy actually weak vs piercing (though lox, for example, are effectively weak to it because they resist both slashing and blunt). There's no real reason to have a spear instead of a mace in the swamp or the mountains, and in the mountains it's far more of a pain than it's worth, with all of the elevation issues spears have.

Well, spears is just one example (and I definitely agree that spears generally are in a weird spot in this game). That being said, it's not even the worst example. I'll get to that later.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Back to the main topic, bronze sword vs silver sword: 32 bronze vs 160 silver. That's 96 total ore vs 160 total ore, before doubling the bronze yield.

The Silver Sword is definitely an odd one to make a comparison with. It's the most expensive weapon in the game, and it's really only good for one specific reason, which is Yagluth (and potentially Bonemass, if you're doing a sword-only run). The best comparison would be something like Draugr Fang as it costs 80 Silver, which is the median metal cost for most weapons between Iron and Blackmetal (i.e. most of them).

Even in that example, it's much easier to mine 160 Silver than it is to mine 64 Copper. Two Silver veins should yield at least 160 Silver and are easy to mine by just digging them out completely and then hitting them four times with an Iron Pickaxe. On the other hand, 64 Copper is the majority of one Copper deposit and takes several days to both excavate and mine, and that's not even counting the 32 Tin you also need for the Copper to be useful.

Also:

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Depends on the seed and surely thats why so much complain about the grind , tin are in shores of BF and some seeds don't have BF shores near of meadows

While Tin is super easy to mine... that's if you can actually find it in the first place. Copper is generally easy to find (but not always); it's just the mining that's the annoying part.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Bronze axe, mace, and atgeir all have the same cost of 32, for some odd reason. Iron sword, axe and mace: each are 80 total. Iron atgeir: 120 total. Blackmetal axe and sword are both 80. Atgeir is 120.

I like how you just stopped calculating the actual metal requirements at this point because it would completely undermine your argument. All of those Bronze weapons cost more than their later counterparts, and that's not even considering how much easier it is to get the later metals. Hell, you'll find more Scrap Iron in Sunken Crypts than you will by mining, and you have to loot Crypts anyway to get the boss item.

The one exception is the Atgeir, which you must have missed because I already said that:

Originally posted by Marksman Max:

The ONLY Bronze weapon that is actually cheaper than its later cousins is the Atgeir, which costs the same as other options.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Bronze plate cuirass: 23 bronze. Iron scale mail: 50 iron. Wolf armor chest: 50 silver. Padded cuirass: 28 iron. Do I need to go on?

Yet again, you just don't calculate the actual metal required and just count the Bronze like it's somehow easier to make than Iron/Wolf Armor. Spoiler alert: it isn't.

23 Bronze is 69 total ingots, and that's a lot harder to get than 50 Scrap Iron. Most Crypts I loot have enough scrap in them to get a full set of Level 2 Iron Armor, and two Crypts should contain at least enough for a maxed set of Iron Armor. And just to reiterate: you have to loot Crypts anyway to get the bones to summon Bonemass, so you're smashing two rocks with one pickaxe.

Originally posted by shadain597:

Right now bronze recipes do cost more than many other recipes, but nowhere near double.

In most cases, no; I'll give you that. However, the particularly bad case I mentioned near the beginning was the Bronze Buckler. This thing is insanely expensive; 25 Bronze to fully upgrade, which means 75 total ingots. The Bronze Buckler is more than three times as expensive as most later shields. The Banded, Silver, and Blackmetal Shields only require 20 metal each. The Iron Buckler needs 25 Iron ingots to fully max, and is the only non-tower shield that "only" costs three times less than the previous buckler. And unlike the Bronze Spear (which is probably crafted by no one, ever), the Bronze Buckler is a necessity for the Swamps if you're a melee class.

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Guess you use a good parry shield and dont get any touch from sword fulings ( most common ) and aggro loxes

My problem with the end-game level stuff is that the best strategy is just not getting hit at all. The Padded Armor isn't worth it whatsoever IMO; the 10% movement penalty makes it more of a hindrance than a benefit, and Fulings still do a ton of damage per hit; more than your health regen can naturally restore by a considerable margin, even with the best food items in the game. If you need to use potions or Forsaken Powers to survive against multiple Fuling attacks with Padded Armor, then it's just not worth using. The Root Harnesk makes you a tank against the most annoying enemies in the game, and everything else is easily dodged.

Case in point; I fought Yagluth with my dad twice. We died quite a bit the first time, but I wanted to try him again with my unarmed character with a maxed Fenris armor set. The second character did considerably better; since some of Yagluth's attacks just hit like a truck regardless (especially those damn homing meteors), I could just run away with the Fenris guy while my Padded character was just getting his ♥♥♥♥ rocked.

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

And Because root set its very bad in mountains specially in caves where ocultists use fire attacks and you have not anti fire wine in that point of the game

Frost Caves are pretty easily cheesed with Ooze Bombs. Both Cultists and Ulvs are Weak to Poison damage, and you can also just throw them at a door that Cultists/Ulvs are behind, and there's absolutely nothing they can do about it.

Originally posted by blankitosonic:

Wolf or padded are far better options in plains than root ...

I dunno; I love seeing a Deathsquito hit me, only to deal a whopping 11 damage. Even maxed Padded Armor can't get you a damage reduction that good.

wut ? full upgraded padded set , serpent stew , lox pie and blood puding and rested buff : 205 hp and 100 def
normal fulings and skitos hits me for 15-17 and the hp regen for : 15 .... so nope about that " more than your health regen can naturally restore by a considerable margin" its pure BS or you really are not in end game stuff xd ....plus a parry master no needs to run , only from a 2* fulings that you never in the world cant tank with root set :D

[gerzald]

Troll armor is full of blue mites. Very itchy.