Fire arrows worse than flint & even wood arrows.

[Droolguy]

Due to the fact that fire does not stack in any way (neither damage nor duration). These three-component arrows actually significantly underperform vs. the raw damage three-component flint arrows and even the one-component wood arrows.

This is compounded massively the more bow skill you get as the faster you can shoot arrows the further the divide is *multiplied* due to only base arrow damage being a factor that is modified by speed (fire DoT is *capped* by the rate of 1 arrow over it's standard duration).

In order to fix them they strongly either need damage or duration to stack from multiple hits. Allowing a player to "DoT up" a target and let it burn over a long time, or "Burn down" a target by constantly ramping the fire DPS over multiple hits.

[MisterSpock]

they do less dmg not worth it.

[Fartkicks]

They work well on drakes, allowing you to two shot (one shot if sneak attack) them.

[Droolguy]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by Droolguy:

Switching targets to "spread out" the damage is only mildly relevant as the whole concept of deliberately not focusing damage on singular mobs with DD is outright wrong. Mathematically you are deliberately increasing the damage potential of a mob group over a given encounter to it's maximum potential by doing this.

While solid in logic, this isn’t correct either. Theoretically, leaving mobs up increases their damage potential, yes, but there are more variables to this that change that outcome. From mobs having to get close to initiate a static attack animation that is easy to walk away from in most cases to mobs getting body blocked on each other or even fighting one another, there’s plenty of situations where having more enemy mobs is almost better for the player because they inhibit one another. The only time focusing damage out to eliminate targets is a solid logic is with ranged enemies since their attacks aren’t limited by proximity or lengthy animations. When you’re playing with multiple players as well, some mobs will be made weak enough by a single fire arrow that another player can finish them with a single strike. By tagging each enemy with a fire arrow, a single AoE attack can finish the whole pile even.

I get where your raw numbers breakdown is coming from and from a purely mathematical standpoint you’d be right. You know what they say about plans and first contact with the enemy though. That plan doesn’t survive application to an actual scenario.

So, no, having more mobs up represents a higher area-denial effect on the player, as they both body block YOU and their attacks cumulatively hit both a larger area, and more often, allowing less safe space and time for player retaliatory attacks.

Friendly mobs can not hit each other, and hostile factions is moot because they will kill eachother regardless of player interaction until only one faction is left.

We are getting off topic though, since you can "spread damage" more accurately with wood & flint as they allow more immediate and frequent inputs to to mob pile.

[Shamanalah]

Originally posted by Droolguy:

Making them properly balanced would not change this for you in any way.

They are balanced. Just not in the way YOU want. I'm starting to gear with iron so I'll be making bronze arrow.

You have a 1 dimensional idea. People play differently. They aren't the best, they aren't bad. You can make them with a workbench lvl 1. Of course they are bad

WTF you on about?

[Droolguy]

Originally posted by Shamanalah:

Originally posted by Droolguy:

Making them properly balanced would not change this for you in any way.

They are balanced. Just not in the way YOU want. I'm starting to gear with iron so I'll be making bronze arrow.

You have a 1 dimensional idea. People play differently. They aren't the best, they aren't bad. You can make them with a workbench lvl 1. Of course they are bad

WTF you on about?

Just because you don't understand the concept of balance, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Your logic is basically "♥♥♥♥ it, I don't have to worry about it so it's not my problem" shown clearly by the first thing you said (the most important thought in your head) being "I'm starting to gear with iron so I'll be making bronze arrow."

[Shamanalah]

Originally posted by Droolguy:

Just because you don't understand the concept of balance, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Your logic is basically "♥♥♥♥ it, I don't have to worry about it so it's not my problem" shown clearly by the first thing you said (the most important thought in your head) being "I'm starting to gear with iron so I'll be making bronze arrow."

Flaming arrow were good for Elder, we are in the Swamp gearing for Bonemass. You sure you are aware what "balanced" mean in this concept?

Tier 1 arrow for Tier 2 boss becomes useless afterward? Insert Piikachu-shocked-face.png.

Bonemass resist everything but blunt dmg, you need a mace and your flame arrow will tickle him

My logic is "that's an early weapon, it's bad later on". I don't expect Link to beat Calamity canon with a pitchfork and a pot lid. That's the same thing.

[Droolguy]

Originally posted by Shamanalah:

Originally posted by Droolguy:

Just because you don't understand the concept of balance, does not mean it doesn't exist.

Your logic is basically "♥♥♥♥ it, I don't have to worry about it so it's not my problem" shown clearly by the first thing you said (the most important thought in your head) being "I'm starting to gear with iron so I'll be making bronze arrow."

Flaming arrow were good for Elder, we are in the Swamp gearing for Bonemass. You sure you are aware what "balanced" mean in this concept?

Tier 1 arrow for Tier 2 boss becomes useless afterward? Insert Piikachu-shocked-face.png.

Bonemass resist everything but blunt dmg, you need a mace and your flame arrow will tickle him

My logic is "that's an early weapon, it's bad later on". I don't expect Link to beat Calamity canon with a pitchfork and a pot lid. That's the same thing.

Man, you suck at reading, IT'S NOT EVEN COMPARABLE TO EQUAL OR *LOWER* TIER ARROWS.

[Chaoslink]

Originally posted by Droolguy:

So, no, having more mobs up represents a higher area-denial effect on the player, as they both body block YOU and their attacks cumulatively hit both a larger area, and more often, allowing less safe space and time for player retaliatory attacks.

Friendly mobs can not hit each other, and hostile factions is moot because they will kill eachother regardless of player interaction until only one faction is left.

We are getting off topic though, since you can "spread damage" more accurately with wood & flint as they allow more immediate and frequent inputs to to mob pile.

You're still running into the same problem, trying to use a mathematical concept to explain a much more complicated scenario than the math you're using can handle. You're making it out like DPS is Damage x Attack speed. It isn't. Actual DPS for a bow user involves more details including stamina recharge, line of sight and other variables and inconsistencies that can play a huge part in how all these values interact.

Fire arrows being fired one after the other result in less damage if fired at maximum fire rate at a constant target under ideal circumstances. However, if you only have the opportunity to fire one arrow before having to relocate, you're going to get that full DoT effect every time. Or consider having a few drakes attacking simultaneously, are you going to shoot the one that flew away to circle around while its off in the distance, or are you going to focus the one that is floating still in front of you, preparing an attack? You risk missing your shot on the distant one that's flying around whereas the one in front of you is a guaranteed hit. In that instance, the damage over time can take its full effect for each shot.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong that they could use rebalancing, just that you're using ideas that don't actually work in practice. Take "So, no, having more mobs up represents a higher area-denial effect on the player, as they both body block YOU and their attacks cumulatively hit both a larger area, and more often, allowing less safe space and time for player retaliatory attacks." as an example. This is only really true in an open field scenario. However, using a choke point or other terrain features to your advantage you can reduce the effectiveness of the enemy numbers simply by limiting how many of them can physically reach you at any given time. Mix that with kiting and pathfinding and other things that can limit the effectiveness of enemy numbers and it really doesn't matter much. You can make 10 enemies be no different than 3-4 enemies with the exception that with 10, they'll replace and reinforce losses. However, even then, those losses won't always be replaced immediately.

Point is, the numbers you calculate and the numbers you'd get from actual tests of real scenarios aren't going to add up the same. Those differences can translate into more effective DPS from the damage over time effect than raw stat calculations will suggest. Enough to justify them? Maybe. But higher than crunching the stat card will suggest either way.

[Droolguy]

Originally posted by Chaoslink:

Originally posted by Droolguy:

So, no, having more mobs up represents a higher area-denial effect on the player, as they both body block YOU and their attacks cumulatively hit both a larger area, and more often, allowing less safe space and time for player retaliatory attacks.

Friendly mobs can not hit each other, and hostile factions is moot because they will kill eachother regardless of player interaction until only one faction is left.

We are getting off topic though, since you can "spread damage" more accurately with wood & flint as they allow more immediate and frequent inputs to to mob pile.

You're still running into the same problem, trying to use a mathematical concept to explain a much more complicated scenario than the math you're using can handle. You're making it out like DPS is Damage x Attack speed. It isn't. Actual DPS for a bow user involves more details including stamina recharge, line of sight and other variables and inconsistencies that can play a huge part in how all these values interact.

Fire arrows being fired one after the other result in less damage if fired at maximum fire rate at a constant target under ideal circumstances. However, if you only have the opportunity to fire one arrow before having to relocate, you're going to get that full DoT effect every time. Or consider having a few drakes attacking simultaneously, are you going to shoot the one that flew away to circle around while its off in the distance, or are you going to focus the one that is floating still in front of you, preparing an attack? You risk missing your shot on the distant one that's flying around whereas the one in front of you is a guaranteed hit. In that instance, the damage over time can take its full effect for each shot.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong that they could use rebalancing, just that you're using ideas that don't actually work in practice. Take "So, no, having more mobs up represents a higher area-denial effect on the player, as they both body block YOU and their attacks cumulatively hit both a larger area, and more often, allowing less safe space and time for player retaliatory attacks." as an example. This is only really true in an open field scenario. However, using a choke point or other terrain features to your advantage you can reduce the effectiveness of the enemy numbers simply by limiting how many of them can physically reach you at any given time. Mix that with kiting and pathfinding and other things that can limit the effectiveness of enemy numbers and it really doesn't matter much. You can make 10 enemies be no different than 3-4 enemies with the exception that with 10, they'll replace and reinforce losses. However, even then, those losses won't always be replaced immediately.

Point is, the numbers you calculate and the numbers you'd get from actual tests of real scenarios aren't going to add up the same. Those differences can translate into more effective DPS from the damage over time effect than raw stat calculations will suggest. Enough to justify them? Maybe. But higher than crunching the stat card will suggest either way.

The math is never perfect, but your conveniently ignoring the 99% of gameplay where it *is* to inject fringe use cases.

Even then, the math is generally accurate, there is a reason that terms and conditions are basically codified across game development because none of this uses new concepts and the actual nitty gritty of the game and how people interact with it (all games) is fairly well understood.

Yes, there are fringe use cases that are *very* specific in which fire arrows *could* possibly be better. But they are just that, fringe, and without a parser you would be hard pressed to actually prove that point.

The math is always used as a baseline for balance, and then refined with player usage scenarios. Right now, the math is so far off, that being realistically viable in nearly any use case except the extreme fringe is unlikely.

[Vyktor]

Reading this thread is the first time I've thought to try putting different arrows in a few item slots and using hotkeys to change ammo type. I know I'm bad, but fire arrows seem to work pretty well for most stuff, combined with running away.

[BGratz]

Spand a day in front of a Stone and skill your bow.
Theres nothing you will ever again run away from.
(well maybe except bosses to shoot them from max distance)

[Khanivore]

Real life fire arrows have a ton of drag and therefore have less piecing damage than faster non-fire arrows, would explain the difference

[GrandTickler]

i dont know what we need a 3 page discussion for lol, but like with every game some enemies are weaker to one element than another. i destroyed the 4th boss with fire arrows, try that with your flint arrows

[SeeingeyeDug]

Another problem is that two DoTs can't happen and there's a DoT component to the Draugr Fang. So the best way to maximize damage is to use non-elemental arrows so the Draugr Fang DoT doesn't get overwritten. Still though, certain arrows are better vs certain bosses. Two bosses laugh at piercing damage, so all those flint, iron, wood, needle, whatever are pretty useless.

[BGratz]

Originally posted by GrandTickler:

i dont know what we need a 3 page discussion for lol, but like with every game some enemies are weaker to one element than another. i destroyed the 4th boss with fire arrows, try that with your flint arrows

(from a fungame/testgame)
First boss easten by wolfes
Second boss eaten by wolfes
Third boss eat the wolfes (one Lox nearly kiled him ^^)
Fourt Boss eaten by wolfes
Fith boss eat the wolfes during they eat him

Result , we need Wolf arrows