Pikeman Vs Spearman - A Problem I see

[Ronnie]

Highwayman Spearman normal unit gets light armor and My Pikeman Hero gets no armor at the start and can upgrade to get Light at level 5 and Medium at Level 10

Spearman starts with Light Armor and at level 5 they can upgrade to Medium Armor

The Problem is Pikeman should be an upgraded version of a Spearman and should start with Light Armor and possibly even use heavy armor at level 10 and Medium at level 5 since they are front line warriors I'd think they would need heavy armor like Swordsman. I feel since Pikeman start with no Armor they are wasting a upgrade just to get Light armor at level 5 that is the problem.

Also the Graphics Picture of a Pikeman suggest he is wearing Heavy Armor but starts with no armor at all at level 1? I think this should be fixed.

[GeorgeJJR]

I noticed that as well, and as you say, it doesn't make sense.

I modded Pikemen to start (as you suggested) with Light Armor and gave them the level 5 option of Medium Armor and level 10 option of Heavy Armor.

I also modded Spearmen to give them the option of evolving to Pikemen at level 10, and Swordsmen to give them the option of evolving to Crusaders at at level 10 (and Cavalry to Paladins at level 10).

Of course after that I ended up revamping a lot of the units -- made Priests a front line healer so there's a reason for using them as well as Bishops, and then added upgraded versions etc ... the modding becomes a building game in itself.

[Ronnie]

Not really into Modding myself but the Developers should put this stuff in the base game I am sure they will with future updates.

Also Some of your base line units should be able to evolve to a mid tier type of unit since it is mid game or inbetween early- mid vice versa.

A spearman alone should not remain a spearman but can decide to become either a pikeman or a swordman or maybe a Veteran Spearman with buffed hit points , damage etc.

I think a cool idea would be perhaps even a unit can evolve into a Lesser Hero lol Like a normal pikeman out of that group of what is it 5 one becomes super elite and evolves to a Lesser hero Pikeman.

Also They really need to address the font size issue as tiny words for longer periods of time is not easy to read. We need normal descent size fonts in the game for battle reports and looking at your units. Since this type of game probably caters to the older generation ones eyes are not top notch although my vision is pretty good I just don't like to strain my eyes on small font sizes.

[vlanil777]

You want all units to be the same ? Pikeman have their stenghts without armor , they are not upgraded spearmen they are diff unit type .

[Medway]

From a brief search it seems Pikemen didn't usually have much armor. The length of the pike itself probably acted as an avoidance mechanism.

Agree with Vlanil that I don't think they are an upgrade but a different unit with a different purpose.

[GeorgeJJR]

Originally posted by Medway:

From a brief search it seems Pikemen didn't usually have much armor. The length of the pike itself probably acted as an avoidance mechanism.

Agree with Vlanil that I don't think they are an upgrade but a different unit with a different purpose.

According to:

https://historum.com/threads/why-did-pikemen-not-wear-armour-at-first.96784/

"However, early pikemen of 15th and first half of 16th century clearly wore more armour than later pikemen. The increasing effectiveness of fire weapons mean that armour was not that decissive. You won't see this level of armour in 16th, and in no way 17th centuries, even among the supposedly "armoured" elements of the armies"

Which suggests Light Armor for Pikemen (which I take to be leather armor). My own reason for modding it as upgrades has more to do with game play -- for the same reason that its enjoyable to evolve units like Baby Dragons to Ancient Dragon, its enjoyable to evolve unitls like Spearmen up to Pikemen etc.

[meglobob1]

I did a search too on this and its a bit mixed but spearmen did appear to be slightly better armoured then pikemen. Like Medway says, pikemen rely on there pikes to defend them, if the enemy gets past that, then they are toast...

[Mort]

The strength of the pikemen is their long weapons upgrade at level 5. If you get a pikeman hero, you can stack +number of attacks on them and get a unit that can insta-delete any target provided he can get to them.

[Medway]

I do think a hero Pikeman should have armor though. It seems that noble or wealthy Pikemen would have it more on average so maybe this can be one of the perks of the hero.

[Ronnie]

In Deity Empires The Graphic of the Pikeman displays heavy armor and the Pikeman starts with no Armor... Pikeman do wear Heavy Armor They pull out Swords once any invaders get past the pike to fight melee close combat which means they need heavy armor. Pikeman do not depend just on one weapon. The same holds true with Bowman they carry small short swords or daggers with their bows.

Pikeman are basically an upgraded spear unit anything that has long range and can point out of melee range is a spear like weapon except pikeman have bigger types of spears as a Halberd is or a pike is just a modified bigger spear.

[gogis_]

Originally posted by GeorgeJJR:

Which suggests Light Armor for Pikemen (which I take to be leather armor).

Leather armor is (almost) a fantasy. Light armor was padded armor (gambeson/aketon). Which is actually, very effective for it's price

[gogis_]

Originally posted by Ronnie:

In Deity Empires The Graphic of the Pikeman displays heavy armor and the Pikeman starts with no Armor... Pikeman do wear Heavy Armor They pull out Swords once any invaders get past the pike to fight melee close combat which means they need heavy armor. Pikeman do not depend just on one weapon. The same holds true with Bowman they carry small short swords or daggers with their bows.

Pikeman are basically an upgraded spear unit anything that has long range and can point out of melee range is a spear like weapon except pikeman have bigger types of spears as a Halberd is or a pike is just a modified bigger spear.

Research the topic, please. Start reading with wikipedia entry about Swiss mercenaries. Spearmen and pikeman are completely different in about everything. And pikemen were notoriously less armored than their contemporaries. Right now you just guesstimating from what you think is common sense. You are wrong.

[GeorgeJJR]

Originally posted by gogis_:

Originally posted by GeorgeJJR:

Which suggests Light Armor for Pikemen (which I take to be leather armor).

Leather armor is (almost) a fantasy. Light armor was padded armor (gambeson/aketon). Which is actually, very effective for it's price

Well, its actually a topic of some debate whether it was used or not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/26of6r/leather_armor_is_a_common_fantasy_trope_did_it/

But in the context of the Deity Empires game, light armor seems to be (from the figures) leather armor. Its a fantasy game, so worrying about what actual armor types were used in the real world strikes me as curious given the lack of real fireballs etc.

There are games of course based on realism, and your point is on the money for those.

[gogis_]

Originally posted by GeorgeJJR:

Well, its actually a topic of some debate whether it was used or not.

Yeah, that's why I said 'almost' :) Leather use was ubiquitous, but it wasn't lauded as a great armor material.

[meglobob1]

Yeah I think historically speaking across europe / asia the majority of forces were peasant folk given basic training and thus had normal clothes, padded (cloth) armour + whatever they could scrounge up.

Then you had professional mercenaries with better armour padded armour, perhaps some bits of leather armour / chainmail.

Next tier rich landowners / nobles with chain / banded / plate armour.

When longbows, crossbows and obviously gunpowder became more common, armour became less and less useful, since to some degree those were armour piercing.

[Medway]

Originally posted by GeorgeJJR:

Originally posted by gogis_:

Leather armor is (almost) a fantasy. Light armor was padded armor (gambeson/aketon). Which is actually, very effective for it's price

Well, its actually a topic of some debate whether it was used or not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/26of6r/leather_armor_is_a_common_fantasy_trope_did_it/

But in the context of the Deity Empires game, light armor seems to be (from the figures) leather armor. Its a fantasy game, so worrying about what actual armor types were used in the real world strikes me as curious given the lack of real fireballs etc.

There are games of course based on realism, and your point is on the money for those.

I think the parts that actually exist in reality could stay more true to history with fantasy stuff mixed in.