Pre carrier update tendency

[HungryHunter]

I played and tested alot and a few things i notice.
1) command cruiser are better liners in firepower, agility and AI behaviour.
2) S3 have no realy use. 2 to 4 S2 will do more damage then one S3.
Bonus: Only ANS and command cruisers can use the short arming time well... the main benefit over S2.
3) Container lines big slot is only for container racks. There are no "big gun" or sensor array to make this 1000 point one tric pony into something more.
4) 20 points plus 3 per rocket is a high price for something that can only be used against target that have no 20mm PD.
5) The intelsystem is already brocken thanks to scaut missiles. What will happen with fighters? Can this system avoid the fade of the crew system?
6) Damage control main duty is to give repait teams. The restores are often lost with there decks bevor the player hat a chance. Maybe DC lockers could still provide restores but with a high time penelty.
7) How about costebisble mines? Mines that have sensors or jammers would be awesome.
8) S1 missiles could be cheaper. Rarely seen them in action and even rarer being usefull.
9) ELINT system takes to much space with there small mound slot. Making them tiny could make the players pick them up without sacrifice firepower.
10) I often skip raines over sprinters if i just need an escort for my bigger ships.
11) shuttles are nice but i feel they missing something. At least they dont compeat for the same roles with the tug as the raines and the sprinters.
12) Monitors are way to often mission killed. the beam keystone destroyer has an excuse being an glascannon with its 22cm armor but 48cm would highly hinting to the players to be ... tanky.
13) ANS has a clear advantage playing missile mains without becoming a armless black night. OSP need something like the belly beamer too.
14) auxiliary steering often has no real use. Its not realy cheaper or harder then a normal CIC.
15) Why does ANS have the better antena and the Prowler Drive and OSP dont? OSP has no communication jammer (outside of the command cruiser) and OSP's radar are so ♥♥♥♥ or so good that the prowler drive cant perform its dutys of being sneaky.

This are just 15 or many rants i have. Feel free to add things you find odd and could be better.

[CynSys | Platius Cyndar]

1.) Haha no. Command Cruisers have worse firepower then liners - in fact liners have the highest per unit firepower in the game as they can efficiently use OSP's casemates, and are usually cheaper then line cruisers on top. Their agility is similar but differently biased - liners are faster and accellerate like mad on their preffered axis (forward and back), Command cruisers strafe better.

2.) S3s have plenty of uses, but are indeed quite specialized. Missiles do not have an arming time,, but there is a minimum recommended engage range within which they are unlikely to score a hit. THis range depends on the precise tuning of the missile, however.

3.) The CLN is turning into the OSP's fleet carrier come next update, but you are right for now. That said, it's only 600 points.

4.) Rockets can, if intelligently employed, absolutely penetrate 20mm PD. Just because it doesnt work head on with no mind paid to its employment, does not mean it does not work ever.

5.) Pfuh, ♥♥♥♥ if I know dude. WHole system needs a rework.

6.) Use reinforced lockers

7.) I have no idea what "costebisble" means.

8.) S1s are primarily defensive. OSP uses them all of the time to defend against ANS' hybrid missiles, and they perform admirably in that role.

9.) ELINT is insanely powerful, the mount asking price is fine tbeh

10.) That is interesting, given the Raines primary downside is its low speed - which doesnt matter in escort duty. The Raines in exchange gains better, bigger mounts and a large reactor. It is the superior escort ship.

11.) Iunno, I think theyre fine? Theyre a fast response vehicle, they can do rockets and guns...

12.) You are clearly not building them right. Monitors can be incredibly sturdy... you just need to build them right. Use Damage Control Complexes, Citadel Magazines, reinforced and large lockers...

13.) Yes, ANS is indeed the missile faction. ANS is also the faction with ships that can do more things at once, This is intentional game design. ANS ships can do many things at once, but the ANS doesn't really get many different hulls. OSP ships need to specialize, but then perform better in the roles they specialized into - and crucially, being cheaper you can also field considerably more of them usually.

14.) Oh my sweet summer child... it doesn't compound alongside CICs,, meaning you can bring 2 CICs and 2 Aux steerings without incurring compounding costs, where 4 CICs would eat a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of points. They are also extremely tanky.

15.) As for the antenna - that's by design. OSP is supposed to be weak to comms jamming, not that it matters because comms jamming is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ broken rn. As for the prowler drive... its incredibly niche, but it's always struggled to be relevant because it is passive stealth and passive stealth hyper-combines with EWAR to a point where if the passive stealth is just a smidge too good things become unfindable very quickly.

[HungryHunter]

Thank you for your detailed answer.
I mostly agree and apologize for that for minor errors.

1)
Liner with 4xC65-450mm: 16,3 RPM for 510.
CC with 3xMk66-450mm: 17,6 RPM for 710.
Ammo and DC are not included. That just 245 points.
CC 270° with facetank ablity vs Liner 50° with the need to turn.
Well builded CC and Liners cost the same while liner need a radar tug.
My point still stands. IF you not care about alpha damage the CC wins overall.
Plus CC have the habit of never die.

2)
AMS: S2 8s Programming time and S3 3s
OSP: MLS-2 45s reload for 4 (11,25 per missile) and MLS-3 60s reload for 2 (30s per missile)
There is a clear favor to use S3 for ANS while OSP gets more out of there S2 (in firerate and ammocount).

3)
Sorry about the wrong price.

4)
I saw to often rockets fail against 20mm and its most likly true that its need more help from jammers to get past... but then its damage to point ecomeny gets even worse. I just feel its missing something.

5)
Hope they rework and not remove it like the crew system.

6)
reinforced lockers also die quickly if hit correctly. My problem are how restores work and that its party not work (for me).

7)
i missspelled customisable hard sorry

8)
Yeah i know and its my point: I just find it sad that they cant be anything but AMMs.

9)
Its powerfull yes but underused.

10)
Bigger mounts (two small and two medium) to put on... 2 tiny jammers, one small S1 launcher and one medium ECM. If you need to cut corners for more and bigger ships the sprinter as a ewar platform just wins.

11)
I think they are fine too but just missing some umpf.

12)
same problem as mentioned in point 6, DC brakes first and if not speding all restores to fix the main gun feels silly over time. Its realy prone to lose this front gun i tell you.

13)
My point: OSPs habbit of specialze leads to missile/container liners being doomed/useless against ambushers and flankers. ANS heavy missile cruiser can simply beam them away.

14)
Who in there rind mind brings more then two CICs? If you lose the first one is clearly not going well and you just buying a bit more time to cap with the second CIC. I agree if you of couse have 4 CIC vs 2 CIC and 2 Aux you getting back alot of money... but why?

15)
ANS CMD and RAD jammer combo realy leaves the enemy blind indeet. but my point is why only ANS has better CMD tech in the first place against an enemy that mostly does not use that. Its like having the EO jammer against someone who does not use EO seakers.

But whatever i think or disagree with i am glad to hear other peoples view.
thank you for that so far. Lets see and hope the fighter update does not make it worse.

[ADHarper]

Just for the first topic: 450 LN with 4 rapid or more cycle module and a radar tug can throw 40 shells in 10 seconds, all it need is a short window. CC on the other hand need to confront enemy capital ships for a much longer time.

You dont need armor on LN when you can use rock. LN with haul drive and chi-777 is fast af.

[HungryHunter]

True. Liner for aphla damage and CC for face to face combat.
But how often you manage to realy use hit and run tactics with its 50-90 second reloads?
I think 32.3 RPM with 10.61 second reload is better then 20,6 RPM with 90 second reload.
Plus CC has EWAR... Plus able to facetank... plus does not suffer from this odd AI trying its best to trun away its guns.
If this game had up or down facing gun"turrets" for OSP or a way to order to "sideface the enemy", it would realy help me enjoying liners.

[Etrigast]

Originally posted by HungryHunter:

True. Liner for aphla damage and CC for face to face combat.
But how often you manage to realy use hit and run tactics with its 50-90 second reloads?
I think 32.3 RPM with 10.61 second reload is better then 20,6 RPM with 90 second reload.
Plus CC has EWAR... Plus able to facetank... plus does not suffer from this odd AI trying its best to trun away its guns.
If this game had up or down facing gun"turrets" for OSP or a way to order to "sideface the enemy", it would realy help me enjoying liners.

you have to have some s2 mls launchers on your 450mm liners in order to deal with flanking corvettes and capitals that are pushing towards you. Also good to have some support tugboats for jamming and maybe a bloodhound tug for spotting. Having a few sprint mines on 450 liners is also a good cause you can dump them and retreat say if a beam bb is chasing you down. The mines should activate by the time they are in range of them.

450mm liners can be hard to use but its all about team composition and proper scouting and positioning on your part. The real problem for osp is ans hybrid missiles which can be hard to defend against without an ocello because amms can't always protect against everything.

The only other thing annoying about using 450mm casemate liners is that at range anything smaller than an axford can change course slightly and dodge most of your salvo, even axfords and solomons can kinda do this depending on their orientation towards your ships.

[HungryHunter]

Originally posted by Etrigast:

you have to have some s2 mls launchers on your 450mm liners in order to deal with flanking corvettes and capitals that are pushing towards you. Also good to have some support tugboats for jamming and maybe a bloodhound tug for spotting. Having a few sprint mines on 450 liners is also a good cause you can dump them and retreat say if a beam bb is chasing you down. The mines should activate by the time they are in range of them.

450mm liners can be hard to use but its all about team composition and proper scouting and positioning on your part. The real problem for osp is ans hybrid missiles which can be hard to defend against without an ocello because amms can't always protect against everything.

The only other thing annoying about using 450mm casemate liners is that at range anything smaller than an axford can change course slightly and dodge most of your salvo, even axfords and solomons can kinda do this depending on their orientation towards your ships.

Good point and i already have multi weapon liners myself.
The "problem" i just have with this is we are less talking about CC vs liner and more how to build a (often single) multi-weapon liner with some escorts.
And part of me like that the other thinks the cargoniner should have this honor, being the "big boy boat" of OSP.

In short: for pure 450mm or 250mm builds with only minimal EWAR and PD the CC just wins despite its 200 point extra cost.

Thank you for your commant and i may add: When using 450mm its a good idea to put two Gun Plotting Centers on it. With good track or even lockon you will see less misses. Part of me wish bullets would be even slower (or ship faster) to make dodging a real tactical move and not just minimal scrambling of the RNG.

[Kung Leonard den Barbariske]

Originally posted by HungryHunter:

True. Liner for aphla damage and CC for face to face combat.
But how often you manage to realy use hit and run tactics with its 50-90 second reloads?
I think 32.3 RPM with 10.61 second reload is better then 20,6 RPM with 90 second reload.
Plus CC has EWAR... Plus able to facetank... plus does not suffer from this odd AI trying its best to trun away its guns.
If this game had up or down facing gun"turrets" for OSP or a way to order to "sideface the enemy", it would realy help me enjoying liners.

Side facing the enemy is best done by ordering 450 mm to fire at a target with a hold fire order in force. They will turn correctly and open fire at the moment you change rules of engagement.

Hit and run tactics is surprisingly viable with a fast liner. I even add some rapid recyclers to be able to drop those 40 rounds in the blink of an eye. Swinging in and out of max range is certainly viable, as liners tend to be faster, but rock hugging is usually more realistic due to distances of the most common tactical scenarios.