Founders or Vox Populi?

[1ToxicVet]

Who are you supporting?

[Solarmech]

Originally posted by St.Million:

It was funded (ie sponsored) by the government. But they didn't create it, nor did it ever technically belong to them.

When the government (or anyone else) pays for the construction of something, they are the owners of it. For example, a ship built in a private dock, but paid for by the US government means the ship is US government property. Also Comstock had to pull his own “Night of the Long Knives” and murder 40 political opponents in order to take control of Columbia. So he wasn’t even really running things when Columbia was built. He was just influential in get Columbia built.

Originally posted by St.Million:

What rights? The working classes (by definition) exist for no other reason than to do the bidding of the middle and upper classes - I.E. The jobs which nobody else wants to do. This is their entire purpose for existing.

Or do you think the uneducated minorities are the best people to be in charge of a Utopian society? Because BS:I demonstrates perfectly why that doesn't work.

Wow. I sure HOPE you are trolling with this. Because if you aren’t, you are just the type of person that caused the concept of communism to be created. As for Columbia being a utopia, it never was. Columbia was a dystopia through and through. Watch this and learn the difference: https://youtu.be/6a6kbU88wu0

[Saint.Million]

Who are you to say what rights the Vox had? Are you in charge of Columbia?

And whilst I agree that Columbia was no Utopia, it was certainly trying to be. But as soon as the Vox gained any power did they create an even better society with equal rights for all? No... They just killed everyone who was richer then them and burned Columbia to ashes.

The Founders ideology was flawed, but they certainly did a better job than Daisy and her murderous Vox Populi.

[Solarmech]

Read this, you clearly need to learn a great deal about the concept of human rights. And quite possibly about basic right and wrong.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

[Saint.Million]

That's nice for the US. But how is that in effect in Columbia?

Also, your personal concept of 'right and wrong' doesn't mean anything within an established society. If people don't agree with the right's they're given (or lack thereof)? Cool.

Leave.

[Solarmech]

Please do leave because your warped thinking process is beyond anyone ability to try and fix.

Oh, you mean people should leave Columbia if they don't like the laws. Did you even play the game? Sounds like you didn't. If you DID play the game you would know that people were not allowed to leave Columbia unless Comstock allows them.

I'm not going to waste anymore time with you. Have a nice day. sm

[laff]

The Vox provided no human rights to anyone they disagreed with or simply didn't like. Anyone they perceived to have more than them or as part of the problem is summarily executed without due process, without any trial or legal defense. Obviously those in power were corrupted by power, but that's no reason to kill everyone and destroy everything.

After the Vox is armed, there are countless dead civilians as you proceed through the game. You see the Vox executing prisoners of war, the police who were trying to surrender to them, almost immediately after you go through the tear. There's a scene in the Emporia Market district where the Vox executes a whole group of civilians lined up against a wall. And before you leave the Factory, Elizabeth must save a child from being executed by the leader of the Vox. There's more to it than just that, but if you can honestly side with the Vox then you probably didn't pay that much attention to the game.

I wouldn't side with Comstock either though. A lot of the death and destruction could've been avoided if Slate had the sense to lead a coup against Comstock and to enlist and train Vox members. It'd have made Slate more powerful and more likely to take out Comstock as well as taken power away from Fitzroy and averted the disaster she started. Slate even could've enlisted Booker and Elizabeth. He could've given Booker his Shock Jockey in return for doing some work for him and that's his foot in the door, making it easier to enlist Booker/Elizabeth for work again.

It's really like there was no common sense anywhere in Columbia.

[Solarmech]

Everything that you accuse the Vox of, Cosmtock was just as guilty of if not more so. He just put a different face on it. That it was a duty to God to genocide the human race. I don't know why so many people forget that was the ultimate goal of the Founders.

The saying that describes choosing between the Founders and the Vox is "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong" (Buffalo Springfield, For What It's Worth, 1967)

[laff]

I'm not accusing the Vox of anything. You can clearly see them do those things in-game. Also, Comstock only conspired to kill everyone, he was going to die of cancer before he ever had a chance to do it. I didn't forget about that, it's why he was grooming Elizabeth and why I said I wouldn't side with him either.

[Solarmech]

Originally posted by laff:

I'm not accusing the Vox of anything. You can clearly see them do those things in-game. Also, Comstock only conspired to kill everyone, he was going to die of cancer before he ever had a chance to do it. I didn't forget about that, it's why he was grooming Elizabeth and why I said I wouldn't side with him either.

The bit about people forgetting about the Founders going to genocide humanity was more a general observation and not a specific response to you. sm

[Gaius Soldierus Hero]

the fact that lutece controls both i will pass on that

[Solarmech]

Originally posted by Soldierhero:

the fact that lutece controls both i will pass on that

Nope and nope. They NEVER controlled the Founders in any way and they only advised the leader of the Vox. The Vox themselves never knew the Luteces advised Daisy and they had zero influence on them after Daisy died. sm

[Saint.Million]

Originally posted by Solarmech:

They NEVER controlled the Founders in any way

Whilst I can't argue that they never directly controlled the Founders, even you must agree that the Luteces had a massive influence on Comstock (and thus the Founders by extension).
Influence to such a degree that it could easily be construed as a form of control. Even if such influence was indirect.


Also, have you ever considered that maybe YOUR opinion isn't 100% authoritative? How about you take a dose of humility and allow other people to have some input without you shooting EVRYONE down?

Wakeup call: You are the Comstock of Bioshock Infinite discussion. And that is in no way meant as a compliment...

[Solarmech]

Originally posted by St.Million:

Originally posted by Solarmech:

They NEVER controlled the Founders in any way

Whilst I can't argue that they never directly controlled the Founders, even you must agree that the Luteces had a massive influence on Comstock (and thus the Founders by extension).
Influence to such a degree that it could easily be construed as a form of control. Even if such influence was indirect.


Also, have you ever considered that maybe YOUR opinion isn't 100% authoritative? How about you take a dose of humility and allow other people to have some input without you shooting EVRYONE down?

Wakeup call: You are the Comstock of Bioshock Infinite discussion. And that is in no way meant as a compliment...

Wow, you really don't any clue about what you are talking about for both me and in the game. The Luteces focused on their research and didn't do much else until Robert started getting worried that Comstock was going to destroy the world. When they tired to get Comstock to give up Elizabeth he had the Luteces killed. That shows how much influence the Lutces had over Comstock. *None*. If you really knew much about the game, you would know that already.

As for myself, tossing around insults like that shows a lot more about what kind of person you are than it does about me. sm

[bullerbuller7]

Don't see how anyone can think the founders are their favorites. The whole city is build by slaves based on racism, then the rich boys taking all the honor. The vox might be mad too, but at least they had a reason to, and actually still has a chance to prove their worth.
From a narrative point of view, Infinite perfectly shows the problems that a beautiful city is hiding.

It's funny to see the contrast between Columbia and Rapture.
In Columbia we see the racism. In Rapture there is no racism, it's all about status based on your wallet.

Bioshock does a great job to show the problems in a "wealthy" state.


The Lutece family wasn't trying to control anything. They were doing science. It's not a matter of who controls who, but how to evolve.

[lammy from um jammer lammy]

Originally posted by bullerbuller7:

Don't see how anyone can think the founders are their favorites. The whole city is build by slaves based on racism, then the rich boys taking all the honor. The vox might be mad too, but at least they had a reason to, and actually still has a chance to prove their worth.

It's funny to see the contrast between Columbia and Rapture.
In Columbia we see the racism. In Rapture there is no racism, it's all about status based on your wallet.

Bioshock does a great job to show the problems in a "wealthy" state.

would you rather have a city of racists or a city of anarchy / no city at all?