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Fordítási probléma jelentése
Hozzászólási szabályok és irányelvek
Hozzászólás jelentése
As I've said several times over, I'm not guessing as much as I am drawing logical conclusions. I am making educated propositions about how the game works, based on info from Bioshock 1 & 2, Infinite, and Rapture (the novel) and gameplay. Deductive reasoning is not the same thing as guessing, as you actually have facts backing up your claims.
But Elizabeth needed no additional redemption. She was developed quite a bit in Infinite, and her character arc ended with her coming to terms with her father's abandonment of her, and being forced to drown him to redeem them both. That was the end of her character arc. There was no need for her to become this fatalistic moper who would gladly trade away the ability to save millions of lives in millions of other universes just to save one girl in one universe. Elizabeth was a selfless individual in Infinite, but she wasn't stupid. She knew her limits and tried to find alternate solutions to seemingly impossible problems (i.e. moving the Vox's weapons into another dimension so they could revolt). Are you telling me she didn't ever once think to, I don't know, bring in another Booker to rescue this girl? Or, even ask the Luteces if they could intervene just this once and rescue her? I agree that she had become as bad as Comstock in Burial at Sea Episode 1, but to me that was just an example of Character Derailment rather than Development. Seeing the Elizabeth who always spoke of opportunities to redeem oneself suddenly turn on Comstock (who, up to this point, had really done nothing wrong) and get him killed just reeked of shoddy writing.
No, now you're guessing. They never say that Salts/EVE run out over time. Never. They never even hint that Salts/EVE run out over time. The only thing we do know is this: if you play the games with full Salts/EVE and never use them except when the plot demands it, they never run out on their own. That should imply that they only drain with use if no other evidence exists to refute it.
That lobotomy bit doesn't affect the Plasmid situation, either: Atlas stopped before he actually damaged the creative portion of her brain, and hadn't done any significant damage to her skull as a hole. Therefore, EVE and Salts don't drain over time, she didn't forget how to use them, she didn't get them taken away. The only thing that happened was that Elizabeth got hit with a dose of Plot-Induced Stupidity.
Perhaps the issue is this: Elizabeth had so many alternatives to the scenario that blindly rushing in at the cost of her abilities was pointless. Even then, after losing her abilities, she could've done so much yet decided that dying was the only course of action she could take.
She could've used her reality altering powers to do so much. From something as big as curing cancer to something as small as pushing Hitler closer to the briefcase bomb in 1944, she could've changed the world. Instead, she just moves along the events of a game that are set in stone, and would've happened without her anyway. She doesn't save the Little Sisters; Jack does. She just conviniently forgets her abilities to freeze things/possess people/block bullets/go invisible exist, and get then beaten to death for no purpose. The point of killing Atlas and controlling Jack herself is simple: instead of letting Atlas/Fontaine abuse the city by controlling Jack, she could've given him the free will he deserved, and aided him along the way of the first game. The gameplay of Burial at Sea Episode 2 showed that she is much more capable in combat than she thinks, even without tears. Therefore, even if she died along the way of Bioshock 1, she would still get a much more satisfying ending than getting her skull caved in in a back alley.
She had numerous opportunities to escape, but she took none. She could've brought Sally to Tenenbaum's hideout (and Elizabeth should know who she is and should know that she wants to help the Little Sisters, because there was an easy-to-obtain audio log by Tenenbaum that laid out her hopes to begin helping the Little Sisters). She could've reunited Sally with a Big Daddy, preferably one of the Elite variants. Hell, taking Sally as-is would've been better than leaving her with Atlas, who openly stated his intentions to harvest her at the beginning of the Episode.
Point is, Elizabeth had so, so, so many opportunities to take different paths, or do less stupid crap, or not develop a martyr complex, or not be a whiny nihilist who believes death is her only escape from misery when she could do things on her own to fix the problems she faced. But, for plot's sake, she didn't. And that's why the entire Episode is crap.
Oh, wow...
That is some massive mental retcon you're doing there, buddy.
Shepard did not die to save the entire universe. Shepard died, because a super-advanced technological marvel, the Crucible+Catalyst, needed him to DISSOLVE (????) in order to either send a shockwave that kills all Reapers (???????) or to send a control signal to all Reapers (???!!!!???), or to rewrite the genetic code of every soul in the universe (????one one eleven???)
In other words:
"Hey there, Shepard, Deus Ex Machina here. I know you've never met me before, and you have no reason to believe a single word I say, but I want you to believe me anyway. I need your genetic code / mental imprint, and despite being able to rewrite the genetic code and/or mentality of anyone else, I cannot simply just read those from you - you will need to get killed so that I can get that information from you. So, off you go, go jump into the pit, or go and grap those lethal-looking machines which your fellow scientists conveniently built without any one of them thinking "This looks dangerous! We should provide some protective gloves near all this electricity!" So, go. Go go go go!"
THAT is the ending of Mass Effect 3: I am awesome with technology, but a sacrificial blood is required for it to function.
==================
Whereas in Bioshock BaS2, Elizabeth knows how Bioshock 1 plays out, and she knows that Atlas MUST overthrow Ryan, for Jack to succeed and for the Little Sisters to be freed. If Atlas didn't overthrow Ryan, Jack would either never arrive, or he would be stopped by Ryan's security forces when he arrived (but Jack would not arrive without the activation phrase).
Yes, Elizabeth could have killed Atlas and save Sally. But dozens of other L.S. would be doomed to life of slavery.
Those infinite Elizabeth's stopped existing when Elizabeth asked the Lutteces to get her back to Rapture after she died there. Her Quantum superposition collapsed and all the infinite copies of Elizabeth disappeared. That is why, when you die in this game, you do not get the Bioshock:Infinite style ressurection nearby, but instead have to restart from a checkpoint.
Elizabeth is dumb. She has some knowledge through her books, but she's mentally disturbed because of her powers and the fact she was emprisonned her whole life. She always acted like a child.
Murdering Fitzroy didn't make her a woman, it only made her crazier and unstable. Gaining her full powers made her a bloodthirsty maniac.
Eventually, she realized how much of a scum she became (just like her father) and that she couldn't get away with it. She decided to find redemption through death and saving that girl she used.
A supid plot tho.
Without Atlas, the little sisters and sally would of never been saved by Jack in BS1. the "Ace in The Hole" was her key and Atlases. Elizabeth knew that Jack was a good person and would betray Atlas, saving the little sisters as well as Sally (If you choose to save the little sisters in BS1 as intended). All Atlas wanted to do was use Jack to kill Ryan and claim Rapture for himself.
I both agree and disagree with what you said.
On one hand, she is very much like a child, being naive and unaware of the evil in the world in the beginning. Killing Fitzroy didn't make her mature; it just destroyed whatever was left of her innocence.
However, she hardly redeemed herself by going through the DLC. She wandered around Rapture, got the everloving crap beaten out of her, helped Atlas despite every intuition of hers saying he'd betray her, got captured and tortured for no reason, helped Atlas again despite having a full array of Plasmids at her disposal, then got beaten to death. She didn't save the Little Sisters at all. Jack did, and he would've saved them regardless of whether or not she intervened. The plot of Bioshock 1 had already been established and fleshed-out, and having Elizabeth die for a cause that didn't need to be fought for isn't redemption. It's just an unnecessary cash grab by Irrational.
He took her weapons, but there's no indication he took her EVE. In fact, there's no information from the story that indicates she could lose her Plasmids or EVE. One could hypothesise that the lobotomy took away her memory of the Plasmids, but that's A) not even implied and B) most likely not true, seeing as how the lobotomy never actually happened.
But that's the thing: how did she know? It was established early on that she couldn't see the possibilites anymore. That scene with Elizabeth regaining her memories as she was hit was ridiculous. If anything, shouldn't she lose clarity when she's suffering from blunt force trauma?
Also, why would she put her faith in a man she doesn't even know and/or a man who tortured her, when she could've just wasted Atlas and taken Sally to Tenenbaum (who she learned of via Audio Diary)? She could've still guided Jack along the way using Atlas' methods, or even directly aided him during the romp through Rapture. Why let someone like Atlas take control of an innocent person when she could've done it herself?
It makes no sense whatsoever. In fact, same goes for the entirety of the DLC's story. Irrational should've just stopped with Infinite and spared its and the first game's storylines from getting screwed over.
She literally -knew- what was going to happen, she lost her power to see through all the doors but that doesn't mean she lost all of her memories, what she saw before still resonated through flashforwards and through Booker himself, that's how Booker tells Elizabeth to find Suchong (it was basically her memory telling her to do so, through a representation of Booker, because she knew she had to do so) and it's also how Booker shows her where the Ace is. Elizabeth still holds all the answers, she just can't remember clearly, hence she brings Booker to aid her with her in doing what she has to do.
Long story short, Elizabeth still kept some of her memories and she knew that she had to sacrifice herself in order for the events of B1 to take place, she had already seen it, and she knew Jack had to be controlled in order to succed.
Perhaps if she took out Atlas and his goonies there was no way she could get past Andrew Ryan, or Sally is captured and killed by Ryan and his goones. Hell, for all we know maybe the cosmos demand a life for a life.
Either way, I enjoyed the game and story very much, and despite the ending not tying in how I expected I was very happy with it.
"If not my future, then whos?" Followed by she realizing at the end of BAS what future she was sacraficing herself for, Jacks.
Upon further analysis of the whole "Elizabeth losing her powers" point, I can conclude that it makes even less sense than when I played the DLC.
She went into it knowing that a return to Rapture meant forfeiting her powers, and therefore rendering her isolated. First of all, why not get another Booker to do the job? He'd be better suited for a rescue mission, and she wouldn't have to give up her abilities. If not that, then why not analyze every possible angle she could use to set thing right in Rapture before losing some of her memories and all of her abilities?
Killing Atlas/Fontaine would still be possible. It was shown in the end of Infinite that events can be altered and that nothing is set in stone, like how Elizabeth wiped out Columbia (speaking of which, how in the world is Columbia still around in the DLC if she killed Comstock before his creation? Gah, these plotholes are ridiculous). If she killed Atlas, she would not only prevent a disastrous plane crash that ended dozens of lives, but also manage to get Sally away from him. How does Irrational expect us to believe that Atlas just lets Sally live after killing her only protector, especially since he planned on harvesting her the moment he saw her? And, as I've said several times, if the plane has to crash and Jack has to arrive, then she should handle it herself and actually have a cause to fight for that isn't just "I'm feeling guilty, better die in a back alley after giving a homicidal egomaniac what he wants."
Jack didn't HAVE to be controlled to succeed, just as Booker didn't have to become a martyr for the Vox to rescue Elizabeth. It was just an event that allows success to occur; a variable if you would consider it that.
See my points above for my response.
came back to haunt her. So she would be happy dying and knowing someone is there to take care of Sally and be back where she wanted to be guilt-free.
It would seem to me you ignored some key points in the DLC though, you keep asking questions the game directy answers, the whole point of Elizabeth going back is that she knew what would happen, she wanted it, Booker no longer exists as we knew him, so she really couldn't get him to get the job, and even then, she wouldn't want that, she wanted to go back and rescue Sally, not because it was smart, not because it was noble, it was just because she did to Sally the same that Comstock did to her. She doesn't want to analyze every single angle, she didn't want to save Rapture, she only wanted to do right by Sally, the game does a very clear job of explaining that in "The Room", when Elizabeth keeps asking Booker why was she doing all that, to which Booker replies that she's simply doing a leap of faith.
It's all rather nice if you leave Elizabeth's -god-like powers aside, she sacrificed her omnipresence for her humanity, that's rather nice to see for a change, really suits the character when you consider her background.
Elizabeth made her choice willingly, she knew about the people dying in the plane, she knew about Atlas, she had already seen everything, and in her good will decided to do as she did, another detail that is explained in BaS 2 is that, Elizabeth once claims that regardless of all the things they can try, things will always end the same, no matter how hard they try to change things, it just keeps happening over and over again, her only way to "dent" the cycle was to gamble on Jack, it's not really that complex at the end of the day.
In regards to Columbia being present in BaS Episode 2, all I can say, going by what Infinite stablishes, is that time doesn't work as a river, but as an ocean instead, that implication should already explain why it's possible to travel to Columbia in time, but not necessarily in space, Columbia in theory no longer exists, it cannot develop any further, but it did exist once, the tear Suchong used to communicate with Columbia wouldn't vanish considering it already established a link between Rapture and Columbia on a very specific time frame, allowing Columbia to "exist" within that frame, while not existing anymore as it's own universe.
On a sidenote, the Lutece twins are rather saddened by their state, given that they don't belong anywhere and can't dream of anything anymore due to there not being mysteries left in the universe anymore, a part of me feels Elizabeth felt about the same way, which makes her decision all the more interesting at the end of the day. Again, being clear here, I didn't like the ending, in fact I didn't like BaS Episode 2, but I can't help but feel that most questions did get answered one way or another (that's in part why I didn't like it quite as much)