Does Burial at Sea Episode 2 make BioShock 2 NOT canon? (SPOILERS)

[Wonderedmario]

I REALLY hope someone can refute me on this.

WARNING SPOILERS!

At the beginning of BioShock 2, Delta and Eleanor, who are both bonded together, due to an imprint, are seperated by Sofia Lamb. This event occurs on New Years Eve 1958, the night Burial at Sea Ep. 2 takes place.

In Ep. 2 Elizabeth awakens 2 WEEKS after new years, being tortured by Atlas. She recalls memories and then goes to Suchongs lab. There, she discovers a big daddy and uses a little sister's needle to make the big daddy imprint on the little sister. They go into Suchong's lab, Suchong hits one of the girls, and the big daddy kills Suchong.

The problem though, is that Eleanor and Delta are bonded together on New Years Eve, but bonding wasn't trully discovered until 2 weeks later. Also Gill Alexander in Bio 2 states that it was his idea to make the big daddies have bonds, yet he is not mentioned at all in the dlc and he also states that he discovered the bonding after Suchong's death, which according to Ep.2 was after New Years Eve. So if imprinting/bonding wasn't really perfected until after New Years Eve, then how are Delta and Eleanor bonded?

To me this entire canon problem would have been fixed if Elizabeth had not awakened two weeks later, after being captured by Atlas.

What are your thoughts. Please refute me on this.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Porks:

nah, ep2 itself is non canon.

That explains everything.

[Mokey]

Originally posted by Purpuran:

Bioshock 2 is not cannon. Ken hates Bioshock 2.

[Mokey]

Its a cool game

[ArmadaOrBust]

Originally posted by Wonderedmario:

I REALLY hope someone can refute me on this.

WARNING SPOILERS!

At the beginning of BioShock 2, Delta and Eleanor, who are both bonded together, due to an imprint, are seperated by Sofia Lamb. This event occurs on New Years Eve 1958, the night Burial at Sea Ep. 2 takes place.

In Ep. 2 Elizabeth awakens 2 WEEKS after new years, being tortured by Atlas. She recalls memories and then goes to Suchongs lab. There, she discovers a big daddy and uses a little sister's needle to make the big daddy imprint on the little sister. They go into Suchong's lab, Suchong hits one of the girls, and the big daddy kills Suchong.

The problem though, is that Eleanor and Delta are bonded together on New Years Eve, but bonding wasn't trully discovered until 2 weeks later. Also Gill Alexander in Bio 2 states that it was his idea to make the big daddies have bonds, yet he is not mentioned at all in the dlc and he also states that he discovered the bonding after Suchong's death, which according to Ep.2 was after New Years Eve. So if imprinting/bonding wasn't really perfected until after New Years Eve, then how are Delta and Eleanor bonded?

To me this entire canon problem would have been fixed if Elizabeth had not awakened two weeks later, after being captured by Atlas.

What are your thoughts. Please refute me on this.

My thing with this topic is as follows: Burial At Sea, as well as Infinite in general, is not directly related to the first 2. Burial At Sea was stated to be in an alternate universe to Infinite, which in itself, was technically an alternate universe. At that, the version of Rapture that is seen is most likely an alternate version of Rapture. Also, BioShock 2 is literally stated to have taken place 8 years after the events of BioShock. I trust the game that's been out for years, that is also a direct sequel more than I trust a shoddy at best DLC to a surnamed cousin. Now, unpopular opinion, my favorite game out of the trilogy is 2, story and gameplay wise, but that is not subjectively affecting my response.

[Ivlichnov]

My theory is that Bioshock 2 takes place in an alternate branching version of the Rapture universe, where the Metro line was built and Sophia Lamb arrived in the city.

But what Bioshock Infinite did was create a multiverse, so all the Bioshock games and the Bioshock novel can co-exist, and any inconsistencies between them, can be explained by the fact that they happened in alternate branching universes.

There are also a number of events and locations in Bioshock Infinite, which echo events and locations in Bioshock 2. This can be explained by the idea of Constants and Variables across the different universes.

[Hitori]

Bioshock 2 is trash and isnt canon, and no it would not exist in an other universe either, after the events of infinite, Elizabeth was the only Elizabeth to exist the other fade away like they never existed. Because of that and the events in the dlc making this universe of Rapture the only one to fall, Altas wouldnt of been able to get to rapture and destory it without her. And to people that believe B2 is better because gameplay are idiots, its not about gameplay its about story and B2 story is terrible so many plot holes

[MΔrtrλx9Ω™]

I think that when delta got the conexion with eleanor they wanted to do it again but they couldnt so suchong was trying to find a new form to make the "click" with the new big daddies

[Midnight Dreams]

Originally posted by Yossarian the Assyrian:

Who knows at this point. The (canon) prequel novel references characters and events from Bioshock 2, while Burial at Sea doesn't. I dunno about you, but I'll trust a licensed novel over a plot hole-riddled DLC.

Cause the book was released before infinite comeout

[Midnight Dreams]

The book was released in 2011
Burial at sea was released in 2013 and 2014

[Midnight Dreams]

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/BioShock:_Rapture_(Novel)

[Sinclair]

This is exactly the problem with Infinite (but more so the Burial at Sea chapters). The story is just so contrived and convoluted that there's so many potholes and problems with the older games.

Not to mention the fact that Burial at Sea takes a fat dump over Rapture by forcing in Infinte stuff for no other reason than to reuse assets. A skyhook in rapture? Icinerate is now Devil's Kiss? Shock Jockey? Drinkable eve and plasmids?

What's the point on going to Rapture if you rip out a good chunk of its character and personality?

[Ivlichnov]

^Following on from the above post.

With the idea of Constants and Variables across an infinite multiverse, there are a number of events and locations in Bioshock Infinite, which echo events and locations in Bioshock 2.

Major Spoilers ahead for both Bioshock 2 & Infinite.

The quest for the plasmid through the Hall of the Future / Hall of Hero’s.
The ambush at the ticket booth.
The incident with the torpedo/songbird, which hits the monorail carriage/airship.
The journey through the Medical Ward / Future Comstock House.
The Animal Magnetism*/Possession Plasmid.

Also see both the ‘Incinerate’ Plasmid advert, and the ‘Adonis Luxury Resort’ advert in Bioshock 2.

There are also a number of nods to Ken Levine’s earlier game ‘System Shock 2’ in Bioshock 2, Infinite and Burial at Sea.

*An advert for Animal Magnetism can be seen in Bioshock 2.

[trevorwperkins]

Resurrecting a dead thread to add a couple points no one else is mentioning. The first adds more evidence that BS2 is NOT canon, then I refute that point and several other issues brought up in this thread.
First, arguably the biggest problem with BaS and BS2 is that BaS pretty heavily implies that BS1's good ending (i.e. rescue all the little sisters) is the true canonical ending. If this is the case, then where did the big sisters come from? There would have been no little sisters left, or rather, they all grew up relatively normal and then had a touching moment with Jack on his deathbed. BS2 shouldn't exist at this point.
Now, to counter that, I'd point out that Lamb was plotting to split from Ryan for a while, and may have hidden some little sisters in secret. In fact, I'd argue that Lamb's subterfuge can account for much of the discrepancies between BS Infinite, BoS, and BS1/2. This is somewhat a deus ex machina, I realize, but the bottom line is that Lamb could have been doing a wide number of things behind Ryan's back (not to mention Suchong's) in her preparation to split from rapture and form her family.
The other issue I'd point out required some similar mental gymnastics (unfortunately). It's mentioned by Alexander that Subject Delta was the first successfully bonded Daddy. Alexander also mentions needing to continue Suchong's work after his death. But no where does he imply that Delta was created after Suchong's death. So the timeline goes like this:
1) "a father's love" recording- Alexander has the idea to create a lethal bond between BS and LS (note that this recording likely came first, as he mentions "big daddy" in quotes, suggesting that this was the original use of the name).
2) Delta is created and successfully bonded to Elanor
At this point, there are two possible timelines, and it's unclear which is correct, but both fit. I'll call them timeline A and timeline B.
A3) Suchong and Alexander both are working towards replicating Delta, unsure how they succeeded in the first place.
A4) New Year's Eve, Delta dies, Suchong dies, successful bonds are formed.
A5) recording "improving on Suchong's work," where Alexander reflects the need to make a bond.
A6) recording "the pair bond mechanism," Alexander glories in his success and laments the death of Suchong.
The other option, which I prefer:
B3) recording "the pair bond mechanism." In this case, Suchong and Alexander were rivals working on the same project. He mentions that "poor Dr Suchong won't be here to raise a glass" to taint his rival, not to point out his death, as in this version of events, Suchong wouldn't have been killed yet.
B4) Ryan scraps the Delta program due to its many problems. He then orders Suchong to start a new protector program that doesn't require the same 1:1 ratio that the alpha program did.
B5) new year's Eve, and everything happens.
B6) recording "improving on Suchong's work," where Alexander now takes over the new protector project. Note that in this recording, he uses the term big daddy without treating it as a new phrase, suggesting that it was now in more common use. Also, while Elizabeth helped create the bond, that doesn't imply that the Daddys wouldn't wander off.

Ultimately, it's probably a case of the team for BoS not caring to maintain accuracy with BS2, as many have mentioned previously. But I do think that it is possible to keep all versions canon. It also makes a lot of sense to me that Suchong and Alexander may have been working on protector programs separately,and that Alexander may have had a breakthrough using the alpha program, Suchong viewed that program as inferior and wanted the daddys to be able to imprint on multiple sisters. I would point out that the daddy who kills Suchong appears to be one of the later models, certainly not an alpha.

[Vagrant]

Constants and variables...

[Solarmech]

One thing that people miss, if not intentional ignore, is that BioShock 2 retcons the timeline BioShock. Particularly about the creation of the Big Daddies. Suchong didn't come up with the idea to use the Big Daddies as protectors until AFTER the start of the Rapture Civil War. So no Alpha series walking around Rapture with a bonded Little Sister. In fact Little Sisters wouldn't have been walking around harvesting dead bodies until after the start of the Civil War and people splicing up all over the place. sm