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-The Bouncer's drill had a flaw in it that made the Big Daddy unstable. You can find this explained on a chalk board in Suchong's lab. You can see it here: http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Bouncer?file=Drill_Problem.jpg
-While not clear, Elizabeth was NOT as nearly as powerful as she was at the end of BSI. Notice that she had trouble opening the Tear to get the bottle of Old Man Winter? No reason is given for her power loss though.
-Atlas and his Thugs waited for the Bouncer to leave before they went after Sally. They wouldn't have made a move until they knew it was safe.
-Elizabeth DID save all the Little Sisters she could (by arranging for Jack to get to Rapture and save them. The Good ending is the canon one now). Her focus was Sally but she was out to break the system that enslaved all the Little Sisters (even though she didn't remember it). Elizabeth focused on Sally because Elizabeth used her and just walked away when she was done. Elizabeth had treated Sally as Elizabeth had been treated by Cosmtock. And once Elizabeth realized that she had to fix the situation. If she didn't try to help Sally, she would be a Cosmtock. And being a Comstock was worse than death to her.
-The Luteces aren't normal and have been stated by Levine as being autistic. They don't think in the same way as most people do about some things. They warned Elizabeth, but let her make her own decisions.
-Elizabeth didn't have her plasmids when facing Atlas. (Notice there was no EVE meter?) Atlas/Fontaine sure has heck would have had some method of shutting down a person's plasmids so they couldn't be used against him.
-Fitzroy was winning the war, but in the end would have lost. The final asault on the Hand of the Prophet would have failed and Comstock would have regained control of Columbia. (We know this because in the Bad Future Booker visits Fitzroy DID loose and Elizabeth was running Columbia as Comstock heir.
-You have GROSSLY overestimated Elizabeth's powers. Elizabeth is NOT omnipotent and is not even omnicent. She cannot just wave a wand and make everything right. Even at full power she was still limited on what she could do. She can merge different realitied and see all the doors and what is behind those doors. She cannot create a new reality out of whole cloth. She cannot change Constants. Even to stop Cosmtock she had to cause a Temporal Parodox and needed Booker's help to do so. Also since Elizabeth "died" in the Rapture reality here ability to interact and directly effect what happened there was limited, just the Luteces ability to influence things in Columbia was.
-Now you are being insutling and ignorant. It was 2K that decided on there being DLC, not Levine. And just because to don't pay attention or bother to understand anything that does not make it bad writing. sm
get him
And as Elizabeth saw behind all of the doors, she not only saw her own future, but also the scene at the end of the credits in Bioshock Infinite.
This is the best video that I have found for summing up the ending of Infinite and Burial at Sea.
*Major Spoilers ahead.*
Booker + Elizabeth | America (Bioshock Infinite) (alt version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwCfyL8mVUM
- She states, but what's next? There's no answer to a question "where did he appear from" because Booker has never passed baptism, that was the whole thing of original story plot.
>-The Bouncer's drill had a flaw in it that made the Big Daddy unstable. You can find this >explained on a chalk board in Suchong's lab.
- I've seen this. But there were also statements that all imprinting attempts failed, so why Big Daddy even started to attack Comstock who was trying to seize Sally? Gone completely crazy? But later we meet one who simply walks around and doesn't try to kill all the splicers around him, seems operating as intended.
And also, if he actually gone totally nuts why didn't he kill Sally herself? And she just kept sitting at the exact same place waiting to be kidnapped. Clever.
>-While not clear, Elizabeth was NOT as nearly as powerful as she was at the end of BSI. >Notice that she had trouble opening the Tear to get the bottle of Old Man Winter?
- So, she could teleport from Columbia to Rapture, but couldn't teleport to an adjacent room to avoid being killed by Big Daddy? Nonsense!
What kind of troubles did she have? She simply said it was a new plasmid to Comstock and then started to open tears with rifles, healthpacks and mechanical patriots as usual. Seems like no troubles at all.
>Elizabeth had treated Sally as Elizabeth had been treated by Cosmtock. And once Elizabeth >realized that she had to fix the situation. If she didn't try to help Sally, she would be a >Cosmtock. And being a Comstock was worse than death to her.
- And THEN she released Atlas from his prison to let him start a bloody local civil war with probably thousands of innocent victims. Exact the same thing that Comtock did.
>The Luteces aren't normal and have been stated by Levine as being autistic.
- In Infinite story their intentions were semi-clear, though.
>-Elizabeth didn't have her plasmids when facing Atlas. (Notice there was no EVE meter?)
- Yes, there were no EVE-meter because it was scripted scene. But NO logical explanation why she couldn't use her weaponry and plasmids to lobotomize Atlas texas style with 12 gauge shot. Even her "memory" "Booker" said something like "you will have to kill Atlas". So why not? She could just slay all his people one by one via stealth like she already did with all those splicers, mayor soldiers and rebels. But no, she preferred to commit suicide. Most stupid videogame death EVER.
> Elizabeth is NOT omnipotent and is not even omnicent.
- So, she remembers FUTURE and could see all the doors. It is exact what's usually called omniscient.
>She cannot just wave a wand and make everything right.
- But she DID it with Booker and Baptism!
>We know this because in the Bad Future Booker visits Fitzroy DID loose and Elizabeth was >running Columbia as Comstock heir
- 1. But Fitzroy doesn't. She only relied on a word of 2 scientists that were working for Comstock and also went totally nuts. What she has to do with Elizabeth anyway if her goal is to dethrone Comstock and gain control over Columbia?
2. Bad future is already prevented by old Elizabeth, ain't it? Bad future is prevented bacause Booker prevented implanting device, and then Elizabeth drowned Booker to prevent appearance of Comstock, so no more Comstock. And it all happened before she went to Rapture, so Columbia with Comstock cannot exist at all and so Fitzroy?
So now take a look, here's a chronological sequence:
Bad future happened, old Elizabeth gives Booker instructions with which young Liz can control the songbird > THEN > Booker rushes forth and prevents device implanting > THEN > young Liz uses Songbird to destroy Syphon, so nothing halters Elizabeth's powers anymore > THEN > Liz uses her powers to kill Songbird. Booker sacrifices himself to prevent Comstocks from appearance. Booker never passed baptism. > THEN > Liz goes to Rapture and here BaS Ep I begins. At this moment there can be NO Comstock, due to previous step.
No Comstock means no Columbia, because he built it. No Comstock and no Columbia means no Fitzroy, because he is the one who she fights against.
How can there be "last Comstock", then "second to last Comstock" (which is in Columbia) and then maybe "second to second to last Comstock"? Enjoy the whole Bioshok Infinite ending razed.
Long version. You think time is linear. Thing happen in order. Past, Present, Future. They don’t in BSI (and in real life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrqmMoI0wks ) everything happens at once. There is no such thing as time. This concept is shown by the Sea of Doors. So while Booker is at the baptism, he is also at Wounded Knee, riding a rocket to Columbia and in 1983 with Old Elizabeth. Why do you think Elizabeth was able to travel to Columbia? Because while Columbia does not exist, it did exist at one time in the past and so it will always exist even though it no longer existed. It’s the result of a paradox.
-*Suchong’s* imprinting effects failed. But it seems that Sally accidentally got the Bouncer to imprint on her just by being nice to him. Remember Sally called “Mr. Bubbles!” and only *then* did the Big Daddy attack. As for killing Elizabeth, some time had passed and was likely a result of the Bouncers instability. Since Sally is imprinted it would have been enough to keep her from being attacked. As for why Sally was still there? Where else did she have to go? After all the attempts to get her staying someplace she felt safe would be the logical thing to do. She couldn’t retreat back into the heating system (it was still running) and leaving the vent would have made it easier to be grabbed.
-Elizzabeth didn’t teleport to Rapture and cannot teleport around in the same reality. She opened a Tear. Opening a Tear take several moment to do and at this point she needs a preexisting Tear to open to be able to do it quickly. Creating a new tear takes much longer and is a major strain. For proof, there is a pic of Elizabeth when she first enters Rapture. In the background you can see the impound area of the Bull House in Columbia. And we know there is a Tear in that location from BSI.
-Really, how many of the people in Rapture were innocent? Most the people stood aside and let little girls be enslaved and turned into ADAM factories without saying a single word about it. So long as they got their ADAM they didn’t care. (And Atlas’s people killed Little Sisters during the Civil War to get the ADAM, so they were no better). So they were FAR from innocent people.
And what would have happened to those Little Sisters in the long run? Lutece tells us. “Enslavement, exploitation, extermination." All the Little Sisters would eventually be murdered either for the ADAM or when they got to old to make ADAM, the slug would be removed, killing them. There was a Morgue right inside the Little Wonders in Point Prometheus for them where the sea slugs were to be removed. (And a “ghost” of a Little Sister). Rapture had already run of out girls to turn into Little Sisters by the end of 1959, do you think that would stop the production of ADAM? Hell no. Ryan just would have started kidnaping girls. Hundreds, *thousands* of them. Rapture was a corrupt system that had to be ended because in the long term many more innocents would have died if it had been allowed to keep going.
Lets not forget the civil war woudl have happened anyway. Atlas was only the spark that set it off. There were a LOT of very unhappy people in the city and sooner or later some even would have touched off the war. Elizabeth just made sure things played out that at least some truley innocent people (The Little Sisters) would make it out alive and the two biggest SOB's int eh city didn't.
-No, after Elizabeth is captured by Atlas she no longer has use of her Plasmids. In the room she does not have them and when Atlas dumps her out in Artemis Suites she does not have them nor does she have a weapon. So no plasmids and no weapons just HOW is Elizabeth supposed to kill him? As for trying to kill him down in Fontaine’s that would have immediately led to Sally’s very brutal death. Atlas was no insane splicer and trying to kill him would not have worked.
-You should read a dictionary. “Omniscient: having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.” Elizabeth didn’t perceive all things, she could find out something anything she looked for when she had her full powers at the end of BSI (and in Paris) but that is still FAR from being omniscient. Basically she had an advanced form of Google. In BaS Elizabeth had to spend 2 months with Sander Cohen to get info on Sally. That 100% proof of a lack of omniscience.
As of Omnipotence, really? If Elizabeth was so powerful why did Booker have to die? Booker, her only friend, the only person she trusted, a person she would risk death to protect and she killed him to stop Comstock. Elizabeth didn’t know Booker would wake up in 1893. The conversation in the elevator ride in Finkton shows that. So with the Last Baptism we have solid proof of lack of Omniscient and Omnipotence.
-It’s clear that the Luteces had been giving Fitroy advice and information for a long time. Likely it’s a large part of why she was not caught by the Founders. So when they said something she was going to listen.
-As for the Bad Future it still happens. EVERYTHING happens, even if they doesn’t happen. That is the nature of paradox. In the bad future the moment Booker is sent back to 1912 the Bad Future reality likely vanishes. When Booker and Elizabeth leave for the Sea of Doors, the Columbia realities vanish as well. But things created in those realities still exist if they are taken out of the reality before the “end” arrives. The card that Old Elizabeth gave Booker to give to young Elizabeth. It didn’t vanish when Booker got back to 1912 did it? No. Booker gave it to Elizabeth and she decoded it. The last Comstock in Rapture is the same. He left his Columbia before it was wiped from existence for Rapture. And once in Rapture he was part of that reality and could not be effected by Columbia no longer existing. sm
To quote the Lutece's... "If we could perceive time as it really exists, then what reason would grammar professors have to get out of bed in the morning?"
After breaking free of the syphon, Elizabeth could perceive time as it really exists. She saw the Infinite. She also saw a repeating cycle in an Infinite Multiverse and said that she was not going to break any cycle, but maybe she could dent it. Just a little.
I would suggest that Elizabeth was the grifter that Atlas feared. She was playing Cohen, just like she played Atlas.
Sander Cohen had a role to play in testing Jack... And Elizabeth was leading him down that path. Cohen even ended up mirroring what Elizabeth was wearing (right down to the lipstick).
As Cohen said to Booker, "she will take you to places you don't want to go."
That contradicts what Elizabeth states. sm
"Cohen. Spent two months as his "disciple" trying to get a line on his trafficking ring. Awful man."
> on her just by being nice to him.
- You sucsessfully forgot your previous statement. So, if Sally got Bouncer, so why didn't she stick to him so he could protect her from Atlas? So WAS he imprinted or not? If not, why he even cares, if yes, why didn't he protect her from Atlas?
>As for why Sally was still there? Where else did she have to go?
- Just follow Big Daddy for example, if he is imprinted (by your words) and just protected her from Comstock? What all little sisters usually do.
>Elizzabeth didn’t teleport to Rapture and cannot teleport around in the same reality.
- So you could just switch reality, like a big deal. As I stated defore: chose a reality where this Big Daddy is actually killed by Comstock or never existed. There was no preexisting tear in that moment when Songbird attacked her and Booker, as I remember.
And the point why she had to use preesixting tears was Syphon, once it's destroyed she is free to go. At least I thought it works this way.
>Really, how many of the people in Rapture were innocent? Most the people stood aside and let
>little girls be enslaved and turned into ADAM factories without saying a single word about it.
- So, most of the germans during WWII didn't say a single word against Hitler's policy, so, by your logic, all germans are war criminals and Dresden bombrun was 100% legit.
One size fits all, really? Maybe even children?
>“Enslavement, exploitation, extermination."
- These things usually happen around the world, so I can't understand all this hype around little sisters. Just take a look at any average African country.
>Ryan just would have started kidnaping girls.
From where?
> No, after Elizabeth is captured by Atlas she no longer has use of her Plasmids. In the room > she does not have them
- True. She did not have them in the room. It was made by devs to prevent PLAYER of making a mince meat out of Atlas. Again: where is in-game explanation WHY didn't she have weapons and plasmids in this room?
Excusez moi, but this conversation reminds me of this dialog from terminator 2:
"- You can't kill people!
- Why?
- What does it mean why 'cause you CAN'T!"
>Atlas was no insane splicer and trying to kill him would not have worked
- Fitzroy's rebels from Columbia also weren't, but it worked. And explain me how just staying still and getting hit by a wrench works better?! And Atlas is just a criminal, yes he is very influent, but not a superhuman in any way. If it bleeds you can kill it.
>That 100% proof of a lack of omniscience.
- That is 100% proof of lack of time/willing or creativity of game script writers, who somehow forgot to explain why her powers are so severely reduced after Infinite ending and left so many plot holes.
> why did Booker have to die?
- Actually, there's no point. We were told it happened to prevent Comstocks from appearing in ANY timeline, to completely get rid of him. And then there somehow is"last Comstock". Ok, no questions. But what is the point in saving Sally, if there are infinite numbers of universes where she inevitably dies? "Killing one Comstock in one universe doesn't matter, but saving Sally in one universe does matter so much that you are going to sacrifice your life for it"
> So when they said something she was going to listen.
- "The Luteces aren't normal". How I missed the moment everyone gone suicidal and crazy?
>He left his Columbia before it was wiped from existence for Rapture
- Original Comstock from original story of Infinite was killed by Booker. So he couldn't leave Columbia, because he is dead.
How some Comstock could leave Columbia? You need to build Columbia before leaving it anyway.
>EVERYTHING happens
- If everything happens, then what is the purpose to rush somewhere and create all this bedlam around saving one random kid. Why don't you want to waste your time saving kittens from trees instead?
>I think youre a waste
You are so rude. You are not welcome here. Be gone.
Imagine the big-bang as a single-point on a canvas, as gravity (space-time) starts to expand and bodies (objects) in this space-time starts to interact with other bodies, there is a chance of every single scenario to take place. When these scenarios happen, fractals start to emerge from that single point drawn on the canvas, creating every single scenario imaginable. naturally this goes beyond "imaginable", because this idea is huge; bigger than what our current human minds could ever imagine. Literally every scenario plays out, from you deciding to write this post and not to that single cell of your body not properly going through cell division causing DNA-decoding errors and therefore maybe causing cancer. See where I'm going?
For example, Booker living in one single universe, when Elizabeth thought every single one was dead, she was wrong. Maybe a handful (infinite?) of Comstocks realized what he had done when he was able to foresee it all through Elizabeth's successful seizing of her ability and decided to abandon it all and start a new life in another universe where Colombia was created underwater.
You have to realize that this is a game, no ordinary humanoid has these kinds of 'powers'.. at least not in the universes that our minds would be able to perceive as "reality". They're trying to sell you a game and it needs to have an emotional plot. There's only so much you can put into a video game. Your criticism, albeit all very valid, is very difficult for scientists and programmers to incorporate into Unreal Engine 3
+1
Didn't the Big Daddy kill Comstock in Rapture? I believe her death was caused by Atlas.. at least in the reality we played in.