[Discussion] Suggestion for a better mechanic: 'DPS check' topic.

[Fredo]

So for context, 'DPS check' as mentioned in this discussion concerns Vulkan Bolla and Angra Mainyu (Extreme & Maniac) specifically.
I am unlike most people who enjoy Pride difficulty, I find my sweet spot for mechanic, spectacle and visual clarity on Extreme difficulty. I purposefully lower my stats by taking minimal path on mastery and level 1 weapons to design my own balance of the game.
So far it has been working, but there are two specific fights I cannot do due to 'DPS check' mechanic. I tried to push anyway and see if I can survive two fail checks, but I can't. At least with AI party members.
Specifically in Extreme Vulkan Bolla (50 minutes limit), if I bring enough dps to barely suffice the DPS check mechanic, the entire fight ends in less than 12 minutes. And in Angra Mainyu fight, there are 3 different DPS check mechanics: Damnation, Blood Thirst and Salvation, in my opinion, that is way too many. But I digress.

So my proposal for this problem is: instead of 'DPS check', how about we do 'hit count check' instead. Since the game already have a way to handle specific stat for each skill (damage cap, efficiency with sigils such as Cascade), adding one more as 'hit count effectiveness' for DPS check would be no problem (I think you can even use the sigil effectiveness for it consider the similarity between Cascade and hit count check). And instead of say, 1 million damage to break one of Vulkan Bolla's part, we do something like 100 hits (ideally scale with party size) where each specific skill/ attack value differently, it can be 0.25/hit for things like Rackam's tripleshot or 10/hit for Io's Stargazer full charge. The number is just for example but you get the idea. Basically a secondary DPS that is not affected by any modifier an to be used for 'DPS check' only.

This change in my opinion would result in 4 consequences (not saying it's good or bad, it is for the designer to decide):
- People who enjoy lower stats and lower difficulty like myself won't be lock out of certain fight.
- Prevent high end player from trivialize the mechanic at lower difficulty. This would make certain fight with this kind of mechanic less savory for grinding and encourage the use of the shop to stockpile materials drop from said boss.
- The timer will actually be used in fights with this kind of mechanic since you are no longer either die from failing DPS check or you win the fight in 1/5th of time limit.
- Enable challenge runs like 'no upgrade'/ 'no sigil'/ 'no teammate' as a form of player-created replayability (similar to Monster Hunter). Though, 'no teammate' would requires player to only use the captain all the way to Extreme, limiting strategy/category choices for speedrun/ challenge. That is another thing, but lets leave it for its own topic.

This post will unlikely to get Cygames's attention and even less likely to get implemented, but as someone who care about game design professionally I am interested to hear everyone's opinion or counter points to my proposal, for a better mechanic.

Thanks for reading, and please keep it constructive.

[brunolm]

I'd love for DPS checks to be removed from the game.

But I'm not sure about hit count check. Rosetta would instantly bypass all checks.

[Fredo]

Originally posted by brunolm (神 Knx):

I'd love for DPS checks to be removed from the game.

But I'm not sure about hit count check. Rosetta would instantly bypass all checks.

From what I gather, Rosetta doesn't seem to benefit a lot from Cascade if at all, so if they have her hit count effectiveness very low like sigil (say, 0.1/hit, mean each of her rose hit only contribute 0.1 value to the hit count) that wouldn't be a problem, unless I am missing something from her kit. Please do elaborate if so.
On the other hand, if she indeed capable of bypass all check, that would make her a very valuable asset for a team doing that kind of fight, putting her in a nitche role, I would say that is somewhat of a good thing.

[brunolm]

Originally posted by Fredo:

Originally posted by brunolm (神 Knx):

I'd love for DPS checks to be removed from the game.

But I'm not sure about hit count check. Rosetta would instantly bypass all checks.

From what I gather, Rosetta doesn't seem to benefit a lot from Cascade if at all, so if they have her hit count effectiveness very low like sigil (say, 0.1/hit, mean each of her rose hit only contribute 0.1 value to the hit count) that wouldn't be a problem, unless I am missing something from her kit. Please do elaborate if so.

That makes sense. Each character would have to have "hit count modifiers"

[angelsenvy228]

You are purposefully playing the game in a weird way so I don't think it's a good idea to adjust the game mechanics to suite your particular playstyle in which you purposefully nerf yourself and do all the things you said you are doing. People do level 1 runs and no upgrades and all that stuff in lots of games, nothing is stopping you and you don't require official modes for you to do challenges if that is what you want to do. But the vast majority of players will play on proud difficulty or the highest difficulty they can, they will not nerf themselves to play lower difficulties with more challenge for whatever reason you have decided that's what you want to do. I don't understand why you don't just not nerf yourself and play on higher difficulty, but you do you. But no we don't need to alter and remove game mechanics to accommodate you imo.

DPS check which are very mild in this game unless you are doing something like you are, whether you like the mechanic or not at least you can scale your DPS to pass it faster or fail it if you suck. A hit check (never heard of that being used in any game) is just a participation trophy to check you are not AFK, might as well not even have a mechanic in that case.

[brunolm]

Originally posted by angelsenvy228:

You are purposefully playing the game in a weird way so I don't think it's a good idea to adjust the game mechanics to suite your particular playstyle

I agree with this, however, the game mechanic "GET DPS OR DIE" forces every build in the game to run 4 Damage Cap and get damage cap overmastery.

It does feel very bad.

Like, there's no benefit in not taking DPS. Maybe the game could be rebalanced to somehow allow for Tanks, Healers to matter

[Fredo]

Originally posted by angelsenvy228:

You are purposefully playing the game in a weird way so I don't think it's a good idea to adjust the game mechanics to suite your particular playstyle in which you purposefully nerf yourself and do all the things you said you are doing. People do level 1 runs and no upgrades and all that stuff in lots of games, nothing is stopping you and you don't require official modes for you to do challenges if that is what you want to do. But the vast majority of players will play on proud difficulty or the highest difficulty they can, they will not nerf themselves to play lower difficulties with more challenge for whatever reason you have decided that's what you want to do. I don't understand why you don't just not nerf yourself and play on higher difficulty, but you do you. But no we don't need to alter and remove game mechanics to accommodate you imo.

DPS check which are very mild in this game unless you are doing something like you are, whether you like the mechanic or not at least you can scale your DPS to pass it faster or fail it if you suck. A hit check (never heard of that being used in any game) is just a participation trophy to check you are not AFK, might as well not even have a mechanic in that case.

You are very correct. I have no right and in no position to request a change in game mechanic to accommodate my 'weird' way to enjoy the game. Still, I bring this up as a discussion to hear what are people's opinion and maybe find a better alternative for 'DPS check'.
Like you said, DPS check in this game is very mild if you play the game the 'intended' way, grinding to upgrade your gear and take advantage of mastery to raise your DPS. But then, there is a waste of the time limit mechanic, since if you bring enough DPS to escape DPS check, the timer would not even reach 1/5th of the way to timeout.
Regard my proposal of 'hit count check', it is very dependent on how the final designer tune the number, it can be very hard to pull off if you don't understand your character well. Not sure if you read the whole post, but in short, by having 'effectiveness' for each attack contribute differently to the hit count meter, something like Rackam's burst shot may not necessarily better than his Bull's Eye Blast, you may have to weave the Bull's Eye Blast at max heat in middle of burst shots to min max your 'hit count damage' and if the designer decided to go nut with the numbers, it may even be impossible except for a very specific party, same as how much health you give to each DPS check object as of now.
My proposal is effectively just an alternate DPS check where your 'DPS' is not affected by your progression. Which mean it is as mild, if not harder than current DPS check depend on your progression, but it also open up opportunity for speedrun and challenge runs since players are not stressed to grind and upgrade their team to meet the DPS check requirement. There is probably people tackle the challenge runs with the grind anyway, but I think if the 'grind' become less prominent, there will be more players/challengers/speedrunners participate in it, which retain the player count.
As it is, this game don't have a lot of content in it, looking at Monster Hunter games, I learn that the player entertain themselves with speedrun and challenges as they wait for DLC or next installment, and I think opening up more opportunity for player-created replayability is a good thing.

P/S: About why I am not just playing normally, it concerns the number of mechanic and moves that the boss have. For example, in Galanza fight, from Maniac difficulty his normal attack combo create huge explosions and fissures every 2 or 3 swings. Then they start introducing dual bosses fights. I came from Monster Hunter, so it is hard to adjust with so much spectacles. I know the game try to be its own thing and I am not judging it for doing its own style, I just play the game in the way that I enjoy the most.

[Om3ga-Z3ro]

Having a hit count check would not work, then it would put more favour to bringing characters that can volley instead of the slow hard hitting characters. Every party are just going to be Narmaya, Charlotta, Lancelot and Yoda's.

[Fredo]

Originally posted by Om3ga-Z3ro:

Having a hit count check would not work, then it would put more favour to bringing characters that can volley instead of the slow hard hitting characters. Every party are just going to be Narmaya, Charlotta, Lancelot and Yoda's.

Sorry for the copy paste but below is a snip of a reply for another person, I figure it would convey the supposedly solution for your concern.

"Not sure if you read the whole post, but in short, by having 'effectiveness' for each attack contribute differently to the hit count meter, something like Rackam's burst shot may not necessarily better than his Bull's Eye Blast, you may have to weave the Bull's Eye Blast at max heat in middle of burst shots to min max your 'hit count damage'."

Thanks for your input, the name 'hit count check' seem to be misleading. Put it another way, this should be an alternate DPS check where your DPS is not affected by your progression.

[brunolm]

Originally posted by Om3ga-Z3ro:

Having a hit count check would not work, then it would put more favour to bringing characters that can volley instead of the slow hard hitting characters. Every party are just going to be Narmaya, Charlotta, Lancelot and Yoda's.

But that's the point he made earlier, someone with a heavy attack would count for 10 hits, Narmaya maybe 0.1 hits per hit or something

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by Fredo:

So for context, 'DPS check' as mentioned in this discussion concerns Vulkan Bolla and Angra Mainyu (Extreme & Maniac) specifically.
I am unlike most people who enjoy Pride difficulty, I find my sweet spot for mechanic, spectacle and visual clarity on Extreme difficulty. I purposefully lower my stats by taking minimal path on mastery and level 1 weapons to design my own balance of the game.
So far it has been working, but there are two specific fights I cannot do due to 'DPS check' mechanic. I tried to push anyway and see if I can survive two fail checks, but I can't. At least with AI party members.
Specifically in Extreme Vulkan Bolla (50 minutes limit), if I bring enough dps to barely suffice the DPS check mechanic, the entire fight ends in less than 12 minutes. And in Angra Mainyu fight, there are 3 different DPS check mechanics: Damnation, Blood Thirst and Salvation, in my opinion, that is way too many. But I digress.

So my proposal for this problem is: instead of 'DPS check', how about we do 'hit count check' instead. Since the game already have a way to handle specific stat for each skill (damage cap, efficiency with sigils such as Cascade), adding one more as 'hit count effectiveness' for DPS check would be no problem (I think you can even use the sigil effectiveness for it consider the similarity between Cascade and hit count check). And instead of say, 1 million damage to break one of Vulkan Bolla's part, we do something like 100 hits (ideally scale with party size) where each specific skill/ attack value differently, it can be 0.25/hit for things like Rackam's tripleshot or 10/hit for Io's Stargazer full charge. The number is just for example but you get the idea. Basically a secondary DPS that is not affected by any modifier an to be used for 'DPS check' only.

This change in my opinion would result in 4 consequences (not saying it's good or bad, it is for the designer to decide):
- People who enjoy lower stats and lower difficulty like myself won't be lock out of certain fight.
- Prevent high end player from trivialize the mechanic at lower difficulty. This would make certain fight with this kind of mechanic less savory for grinding and encourage the use of the shop to stockpile materials drop from said boss.
- The timer will actually be used in fights with this kind of mechanic since you are no longer either die from failing DPS check or you win the fight in 1/5th of time limit.
- Enable challenge runs like 'no upgrade'/ 'no sigil'/ 'no teammate' as a form of player-created replayability (similar to Monster Hunter). Though, 'no teammate' would requires player to only use the captain all the way to Extreme, limiting strategy/category choices for speedrun/ challenge. That is another thing, but lets leave it for its own topic.

This post will unlikely to get Cygames's attention and even less likely to get implemented, but as someone who care about game design professionally I am interested to hear everyone's opinion or counter points to my proposal, for a better mechanic.

Thanks for reading, and please keep it constructive.

I appreciate the spirit of what you're requesting here, I'm just going to say rather than trying to talk about the functionality of what you're asking for, I'm just gonna say I have zero faith in Cygames being able to produce anything that isn't going to disappoint you, much less live up to the idea/charitable notion of what you want to achieve here. This is "AFK Farming game because the mobile game has AFK farming" to some of the user base. It's just not that kind of game, and not that it couldn't be something else but that the decision to make it that way was clearly desired/intentional.

[Fredo]

Originally posted by Persona Au Gratin:

I appreciate the spirit of what you're requesting here, I'm just going to say rather than trying to talk about the functionality of what you're asking for, I'm just gonna say I have zero faith in Cygames being able to produce anything that isn't going to disappoint you, much less live up to the idea/charitable notion of what you want to achieve here. This is "AFK Farming game because the mobile game has AFK farming" to some of the user base. It's just not that kind of game, and not that it couldn't be something else but that the decision to make it that way was clearly desired/intentional.

Thanks for your response.
Regardless of what come out of this discussion, what I really want is just to hear from people of what they think about the mechanic. To be perfectly honest, I am just taking advantage of GBF:Relink community to throw out this very specific discussion to learn more about this very specific topic. It is no more than to better myself in understanding of how to create a good game (in this case, I try to find a better 'DPS check mechanic for an ARPG'). After all, players knows best about what they don't like, especially when they are passionate about the game.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by Fredo:

Originally posted by Persona Au Gratin:

I appreciate the spirit of what you're requesting here, I'm just going to say rather than trying to talk about the functionality of what you're asking for, I'm just gonna say I have zero faith in Cygames being able to produce anything that isn't going to disappoint you, much less live up to the idea/charitable notion of what you want to achieve here. This is "AFK Farming game because the mobile game has AFK farming" to some of the user base. It's just not that kind of game, and not that it couldn't be something else but that the decision to make it that way was clearly desired/intentional.

Thanks for your response.
Regardless of what come out of this discussion, what I really want is just to hear from people of what they think about the mechanic. To be perfectly honest, I am just taking advantage of GBF:Relink community to throw out this very specific discussion to learn more about this very specific topic. It is no more than to better myself in understanding of how to create a good game (in this case, I try to find a better 'DPS check mechanic for an ARPG'). After all, players knows best about what they don't like, especially when they are passionate about the game.

I think, in theory, things like DPS Check tries to provide a structure where you strategically use things like Full Burst. So it's where I think you see the strain of a very fast and loose way of trying to make the game strategic. When I see people doing checks for "what does the most damage", a lot of that is extremely contingent on enemies that don't impose or push back against player behavior.

It means that enemy behaviors can't be interesting/robust or really have some kind of interactivity/exchange with the player. You can see that in what some of these nerds, and yes I'm going to say that I don't find what you're requesting to be nerdy in the sense of what I see other people do you're asking for something to just be fun to you while being open about what that is, do when they analyze the game.

In terms of just conversation, maybe this will resonate with you or at least feel some sort of kindred spirit/interest The damage check is very much structurally embedded and is breaking against how you want the game to ebb and flow. I like fighting Pyet-A because of the music, the way the cut ins and such really provide a sort of drama. That fight ends in a damage check, but what I really enjoyed about the experience was, playing as Siegfried who wasn't even kitted out in particular, using Full Bursts to buy myself time to destroy the elemental units and keep the fight from spiraling out of control.

Full Burst, use the time that my AI partners were providing to destroy the generators and not let it go into a Plus Version of its mode changes.

It was an actually good approximation of a JRPG fight but it was through action game language. But that is in a system that uses very general failsafes that aren't specific or rigorous enough to an action game system to do anything but interact with people who just want to produce damage, surprise surprise. If you want a case in point, guess what debuffs or status ailments like Freeze/Paralyze/Petrify typically accomplish or are made to accomplish by the people I was maligning?

It's not to buy time, it's to TAKE time from the opponent/monster/enemy so they can't do anything but take one sided damage. So, again, I think what you're asking for is more my speed... this game sucks and would never do that lol.

[Dou B Jin]

Having dps checks feels like a mechnical crutch because at the end of the day by out gearing the mechanic. It more or less forces you to go in a direction instead of encouraging experimentation which is a complain I have with how damage cap is mandatory in this game.

Instead of having mechanic that simply check your output maybe give alternative options to beat the check. I like the little things like you can grab Gallazan's spear and chuck it right back at him for a stun, or breaking certain parts of a boss's body actually give you an opening to their weakspot like those giant met bosses. I was suprised you can actually stand on top of its head and wonder why there aren't more bosses interaction like that.

[Fredo]

Originally posted by Persona Au Gratin:

I think, in theory, things like DPS Check tries to provide a structure where you strategically use things like Full Burst. So it's where I think you see the strain of a very fast and loose way of trying to make the game strategic. When I see people doing checks for "what does the most damage", a lot of that is extremely contingent on enemies that don't impose or push back against player behavior.

It means that enemy behaviors can't be interesting/robust or really have some kind of interactivity/exchange with the player. You can see that in what some of these nerds, and yes I'm going to say that I don't find what you're requesting to be nerdy in the sense of what I see other people do you're asking for something to just be fun to you while being open about what that is, do when they analyze the game.

In terms of just conversation, maybe this will resonate with you or at least feel some sort of kindred spirit/interest The damage check is very much structurally embedded and is breaking against how you want the game to ebb and flow. I like fighting Pyet-A because of the music, the way the cut ins and such really provide a sort of drama. That fight ends in a damage check, but what I really enjoyed about the experience was, playing as Siegfried who wasn't even kitted out in particular, using Full Bursts to buy myself time to destroy the elemental units and keep the fight from spiraling out of control.

Full Burst, use the time that my AI partners were providing to destroy the generators and not let it go into a Plus Version of its mode changes.

It was an actually good approximation of a JRPG fight but it was through action game language. But that is in a system that uses very general failsafes that aren't specific or rigorous enough to an action game system to do anything but interact with people who just want to produce damage, surprise surprise. If you want a case in point, guess what debuffs or status ailments like Freeze/Paralyze/Petrify typically accomplish or are made to accomplish by the people I was maligning?

It's not to buy time, it's to TAKE time from the opponent/monster/enemy so they can't do anything but take one sided damage. So, again, I think what you're asking for is more my speed... this game sucks and would never do that lol.

This took me a while to digest.
English is not my first language but if I understand correctly, you perceive DPS check as a way to provide opportunity for strategic SBA bursts. To be honest, I didn't think of it that way, and quite glad that my proposal would check this mark, since stop the timer mean you have more opening to hit as well.
And your second point is status effects are to be used by player for opening to ditch out DPS, which make me realize that the DPS check itself is also a free opening for DPS in certain cases (Vukan Bolla and Angra Mainyu's Blood Thirst), since the damage used for DPS check do take down the boss's health bar. The status effects as I see now are just the same thing with different visual: stop the target for X seconds. Though consider how nimble the enemies in this game are, I can see their reason to include so many status effects, but on the other hand, having access to those statuses against slower bosses would turn them into a little more of a punching bag.
Overall, unless I misinterpret your comment (please do let me know if I do), you seem to enjoy the proposed change.
Thanks for the input and insight.

[Fredo]

Originally posted by 逗逼 Jin:

Having dps checks feels like a mechnical crutch because at the end of the day by out gearing the mechanic. It more or less forces you to go in a direction instead of encouraging experimentation which is a complain I have with how damage cap is mandatory in this game.

Instead of having mechanic that simply check your output maybe give alternative options to beat the check. I like the little things like you can grab Gallazan's spear and chuck it right back at him for a stun, or breaking certain parts of a boss's body actually give you an opening to their weakspot like those giant met bosses. I was suprised you can actually stand on top of its head and wonder why there aren't more bosses interaction like that.

That is very interesting. I am honestly didn't know those interactions. While I agree that bosses should be more interesting with unique interaction like you said, in the current state of the game being already released, such changes would be too drastic to justify. Maybe they can take notes for the next installment, but for this title, I think more subtle changes would be safer.
Even though I propose a solution that is effectively just the same thing but not attach to one's progression, I still think it is quite big and adventurous considering that it requires a totally new understanding about this specific mechanic in an already released title.

On the note of just banter and discuss game mechanic in general, I take that you prefer to not have any kind of 'DPS check' at all, which is totally understandable.
Thanks for the input.