Civ IV or Civ V; which is more complex?

[The Silent CivVer]

Hey guys, would be interested in your opinion on this. I think Civ V is more complex. Here are my reasons:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IFcPEG8hP0&feature=youtu.be

Would like to hear any rebuttals/counterarguments.

Cheers

[Mr. Chonker]

Автор сообщения: d!NO

Автор сообщения: hellkn

This is the answer. By the way, i still play Civ IV with Realism Invictus mod often, but rarely touch on Civ V.

K-Mod, C2C and Fall from Heaven are pretty nice mods for Civ IV as well.

Dawn of Civilization is great too, it's basically better version of rhye's and fall.

[monga man ;)]

Civ 5 hands everything to you. When i played civ 5 i didnt feel confused like i did the first time starting up civ 4.Civ 5 is extremely more simple. The civics in civ 5 aren't even your government form anymore its just a perk tree. The sliders in civ 4 confused me for the longest time. I thought the gold coins were just plain gold and not commerce, so i would spend most of my first game in debt until i found the sliders.

[The Silent CivVer]

Автор сообщения: a nicecupofwater

Civ 5 hands everything to you. When i played civ 5 i didnt feel confused like i did the first time starting up civ 4.Civ 5 is extremely more simple. The civics in civ 5 aren't even your government form anymore its just a perk tree. The sliders in civ 4 confused me for the longest time. I thought the gold coins were just plain gold and not commerce, so i would spend most of my first game in debt until i found the sliders.

If a few sliders confused you...perhaps you should try a game like Call Of Duty.

1) If social policies are considered a 'perk tree', why don't you just apply the same to Civ IV civics? The Civ IV civics are thus just a choice between different 'perks''...the difference is...you give Civ IV a pass because you're a biased (and foolish) idiot.

2) So your argument goes...I wasn't aware of the mechanics in Civ IV; therefore Civ IV is more complex.

This is so incredibly stupid it defies belief.

[hellkn]

Автор сообщения: a nicecupofwater

Civ 5 hands everything to you. When i played civ 5 i didnt feel confused like i did the first time starting up civ 4.Civ 5 is extremely more simple. The civics in civ 5 aren't even your government form anymore its just a perk tree. The sliders in civ 4 confused me for the longest time. I thought the gold coins were just plain gold and not commerce, so i would spend most of my first game in debt until i found the sliders.

Not so simple, usually gets problems with someone snatching my wished panteon belief before i get opportunity to pick a panteon, as rarely play those heavy religion civilizations (celts for instance), most of time playing with Siam and hate how other civs get first Papal Primacy when founding a religion.
The worst part for civ 5 policies is when you completed a policy tree and needs to pick another policy but hadn't advanced enough on technology, most of time this happens between classical and medieval era. That kind of problerm i just don't have on civ 4, and i can regret bad civic choices later on civ 4, while regret isn't a possibility on civ 5

[Na'Vi DendiB0SS]

Civ 5 is easy game.Calm down.

[red255]

Автор сообщения: d!NO

The game -for better and worse - have no rule on how to earn your income - it just gives you, the player, control of various mechanisms and correlated gauges, and it's up to you to figure something out. In fact, last year some guy on CivFanatics came up with a new strategy for maintaining income - failing wonders. I doubt the developers of Civ IV ever anticipated this, yet it turns out it's a perfectly feasible way to earn income.

I recall bringing up building the pyramids to fail them when you have access to stone as a viable way to keep your economy flowing and getting attacked for bringing it up.

Can't remember when I did it. Its a viable strategy given certain factors. before you research currency certainly because its basically just creating wealth, except you can't control when you bank it.

but certain wonders have x2 production when you have access to stone, marble, copper or something. so if you start cranking the pyramids when you have nothing better to do, when the AI finally creates it, you get a pile of gold. which is enough to keep your research slider at 100% until you get key techs in place, instead of falling to less than 60% and stagnating.

its situational. I suppose it could be used to justify grabbing a city location you can't easily afford with access to stone. Haven't really looked at the numbers, mainly useful if you have access to stone or marble. but the pyramids being placed to be if properly timed a huge influx of cash and huge cash advantage. but its only really useful for the great pyramids, maybe a few others.

so I've used the pyramids as an early game influx of cash to prop up my economy until currency

given certain situational factors.

other things i suppose could be used, but not as effectively.

[ghpstage]

Автор сообщения: red255

I recall bringing up building the pyramids to fail them when you have access to stone as a viable way to keep your economy flowing and getting attacked for bringing it up.

Can't remember when I did it. Its a viable strategy given certain factors. before you research currency certainly because its basically just creating wealth, except you can't control when you bank it.

but certain wonders have x2 production when you have access to stone, marble, copper or something. so if you start cranking the pyramids when you have nothing better to do, when the AI finally creates it, you get a pile of gold. which is enough to keep your research slider at 100% until you get key techs in place, instead of falling to less than 60% and stagnating.

its situational. I suppose it could be used to justify grabbing a city location you can't easily afford with access to stone. Haven't really looked at the numbers, mainly useful if you have access to stone or marble. but the pyramids being placed to be if properly timed a huge influx of cash and huge cash advantage. but its only really useful for the great pyramids, maybe a few others.

so I've used the pyramids as an early game influx of cash to prop up my economy until currency

given certain situational factors.

other things i suppose could be used, but not as effectively.

At high levels building Wealth is one of the most popular strategies as its simply far more cost effective than building most buildings. Failgold can be thought of as a more efficient form of building Wealth (that doesn't even need Currency) as it can make use of additional multipliers from wonder specific resources, Organised Religion and, with the right leader, Industrious. The potential returns are really fantastic, the only drawback is that it comes as a lump sum.

When you think of it as being reliant on the AI it looks like a bigger problem than it actually is.
If you remove a wonder from the build queue in the constructing city you can then start another copy in a different city, meaning that not only can you finish it elsewhere yourself, but you can also fail it in multiple cities at once and can even apply it to National Wonders.

Its something that can be done right through the game, and is highly regarded for good reason. Failgold centric strategies are at least a few years old, but Wastintime took it to a new extreme (naming it a wonderbread economy) and basically broke the game with a Deity BC space launch more recently, which is I think what D!NO is referring to.


There are numerous little things like this that spawned entire strategies, another example,

The final patch fixed a long existing bug that made the spread culture espionage mission completely worthless. After being fixed someone proved that not only could it be used to achieve a cultural victory, it could do so considerably faster than traditional methods. The 'espionage victory' now has its own category in the Civfanatics Hall of Fame.

IIRC that patch also fixed a bug with Conquistadors allowing them to become a favourite UU, but broke overflow gold, something which itself had spawned strategies strong enough that Protective was considered a contender for top trait.

Theres even a Strike economy. Its the newest that i'm aware of, though I don't know how that one works.

Many things can have impacts that far outweigh their apparent value. Its why team threads for SGOTM games can run into hundreds of pages of posts, and thats just whats seen as teams tend to use other private threads before the game and running alongside.

[red255]

Aah well if you have 4 cities, industrious and access to stone, and they all fail the pyramids yeah....thats alot of early gold.

I've never done that, I only fail in one city.

[hellkn]

And how about grab Iron or Copper and fail in multiple wonders but also having lots of warriors for upgrade so you can later on go for Axe/Mace rush?

[red255]

*CHECKS*

so you start the pyramids in city A get it to 1 turn out. (hell maybe rush it lol) with access to stone.

remove it from the queue.

complete it in city B, and then you get gold for City A. (and the pyramids in city B) so I guess its in your control not the AI's control. Upgrades are hell expensive, its more for shooting your economy in the arm so you can have a larger empire which leads to more production.

[The Silent CivVer]

Автор сообщения: ORIGINAL "GAMER"

Civ 5 is easy game.Calm down.

Is this why the AI in Civ IV receives a free worker at monarch, yet in Civ V, this only happens at Immortal?

I see complex thinking isn't really your thing, is it?

[d!NO]

Автор сообщения: The Wizard

Автор сообщения: ORIGINAL "GAMER"

Civ 5 is easy game.Calm down.

Is this why the AI in Civ IV receives a free worker at monarch, yet in Civ V, this only happens at Immortal?

I see complex thinking isn't really your thing, is it?

You're so cranky. Just play Civ V then - who in their right mind spends months quoting, replying and bawling on a Steam forum about which game is more complex? .. But then again you mentioned you're a mathematician - so I guess being mired down in theoretical argumentation that serves no practical use, must be something you find enjoyable. LOL

[The Silent CivVer]

Автор сообщения: d!NO

Автор сообщения: The Wizard

Is this why the AI in Civ IV receives a free worker at monarch, yet in Civ V, this only happens at Immortal?

I see complex thinking isn't really your thing, is it?

You're so cranky. Just play Civ V then - who in their right mind spends months quoting, replying and bawling on a Steam forum about which game is more complex? .. But then again you mentioned you're a mathematician - so I guess being mired down in theoretical argumentation that serves no practical use, must be something you find enjoyable. LOL

I am not cranky, I am just waiting for a semi-coherent argument to be put forward by someone with an IQ in the IQR...it is proving very difficult.

What has mathematics got to do with 'theoretical argumentation that serves no practical use'? Are you so dumb that you do not comprehend mathematical modelling basically underpins virtually all our modern technology?

I think you are confusing mathematics with metaphysics...but your confusion/ignorance is understandable since you are evidently a low IQ individual.

[red255]

Look, Wizard if thats what you are going with now this has gone on for 345 posts. I'm not sure any of your points convinced anyone of anything.

so why are you belittling others for it? Isn't the POINT of this topic incoherent ranting by imbeciles?

[The Silent CivVer]

Автор сообщения: red255

Look, Wizard if thats what you are going with now this has gone on for 345 posts. I'm not sure any of your points convinced anyone of anything.

so why are you belittling others for it? Isn't the POINT of this topic incoherent ranting by imbeciles?

Explain why Civ IV is 'deeper' or more complex in these areas please:

1.Social policies
2.Religion
3.Military strategy
4.Diplomacy
5.Civ Bonuses
6.Trading