[discussion] Balance

[Chris Koźmik]

Please post here about the balance (fighters vs magic users, classes, enemies, etc).

So far, reading through topics (v1.00-v1.11) it seems that player's feedback is that:

• Magic uses are too weak in the late game
  
• The final boss should be tougher
  
• Bard is too weak? (but I also recall seeing some posts that he is too strong?)
  
• Late healing spells are too weak/too expensive (should be % based and cheaper?)

[Typhon]

In general for magic (healing and damage), I think part of it is the ranges are too big. Variance is nice, but there's always the chance that your Lightning hits for 40 damage three times in a row while your physical attackers are hitting and criting for 300-ish. I would say look at the spell Fire Blast. That has a nice tight damage range. It isn't too big, but it still gives the feeling of variance.

On a similar note, what is up with these Cold damage spells? The majority of them are hands down worse in every way than their equivalent fire spell. The only exception I can see on my wizard is Cone of Ice, which has a lower minimum but a higher maximum than Fire Blast.

In terms of healing, I almost never use the higher ones because of just how expensive they are to cast. I see that Power heal is 4x the healing of Heal, but it is 5x the mana cost. Even still, some of the physical characters can get a LOT of HP. Healing for 300 max is not enough for 40 mp.

A percentage in addition to the normal could work. I think this should apply for both Heal AND Power Heal. Say, for example, 10% + 36-75 for Heal. Then something like 30% + 144-300 for Power heal. The percentage could grow with the spell mastery (2/4/6/8/10 and 10/15/20/25/30 respectively). So a character with, say, 600 health would get an additional 60 from a heal and 180 from power heal.

Another part of the issue for casters, especially offensive ones, is mana. Spells use up so much mana to do about the same amount of damage as a physical attacker. I'd look at lowering the costs of offensive spells. One good option that I see is that spells have their mana cost REDUCED as their mastery increases (I know some do, but it doesn't seem to apply to attack spells). Every single point reduced helps. Another thing you can consider is significantly reducing the cost of buff spells. That leaves more mana available for combat.

A third thing that can be done to beef up magic a bit, is give it a critical chance. It would be lower than that of a physical attack, but then you can put increased critical chance on staffs and such later. Alternately, if you don't want more damage, it could give a percentage of the mana spent back to the caster.

Finally, yes, bards are weak. They are secondary healers and that's about it. Their better damage than a Healer doesn't make up for it enough. If you want them to stay as they are they need more spells. I think you should give them some bard/troubador only damage spells. Perhaps a song that deals damage to all enemies for relatively little mana. You could play around with this theme for party-wide heals and stronger damage spells. I also think that you missed an opportunity with Inspire Courage and Song of Courage to do more than just remove Afraid, but that's another topic.

Hope that helped.

[Kordanor]

I am playing on insane and Healing in most fights has no point.
Once you get the stronger heal it actually does something again and it might be enough to survive a second hit, but for several hours before that the healers are basically not doing anything valuable in combat and even the big heal isn't doing much.

But as mentioned by Typhon, the mana costs for the big heal are insane. So out of combat I still use the normal heal. Even if it takes ages to heal up my 500 hp or so...

The elven spells also basically have no point (besides for classes which cannot heal at all which you could use as additional mana pool I guess). I don't think they are intended to be really great, but I guess they could profit from a small buff.

Also in general I think hybrid classes are too weak. The bard at least brings his unique group buffs to the table. The Ranger doesnt even have that. Their damage modifications are so bad that they are neither useful in melee combat nor in magic combat.
Their Knowledge Bonus is also a bit silly. The evade part might be ok (not sure about that, hard to judge) but reduced damage by traps? Which traps? The few which do exists only do 10 damage or so anyways IF they hit when you have hundreds of HPs.

[Typhon]

Yeah, I didn't even mention the elven healing spells because I don't ever use them except to cleanse poison. They need to be buffed at least a little, not just in mana cost. If you go with percentage bonuses to heals, then they can have the next percentage step down from Heal. Something, ANYTHING, to make them actually useful.

I agree with all of the points Kordanor makes. I haven't even played around on Insane difficulty yet, so i'm glad he chimed in. He's right that all of the hybrid classes are rather weak.

Ranger is terrible. I can see how the Battlesmith's damage buff wouldn't be enough on Insane, but at least it is a better step in the right direction. It mainly comes down to the difference between casters and physical attackers. The physical attackers hit hard, especially when they critically hit, and they do it all the time. Magic casters need to spend a lot of mana to have a random chance to hit just as hard, if not a little harder. So when you have a Ranger that can hit for, let's say, 200-350 (crit) damage or they can use a spell that hits for 50-240 (whatever lightning is)... statistically the weapon attack is always going to be leagues better. There has to be a REASON to want to cast a spell other than "always hits". Maybe if there were elemental weaknesses on enemies, that might help. More on this (from me) later.

[Kordanor]

And speaking of casts: It might be a good idea to increase the damage of AOE spells in comparison to Single Target spells. Right now most of the time the damage is so low in comparison that even against a full group I'd rather use the single target damage.
If you have the choice to do 120 dmg to 3 enemies with 800 HP or 240 dmg to one, most of the time it's actually more useful to do the 240 dmg on one enemy. An enemy which is dead, doesn't do any damage anymore. While the idea of having weaker AOE spells makes kind of sense, they are too weak most of the time to be really efficient in combat.

[Kordanor]

I mentioned this on discord a few days ago but didn't get any answer, so I am not sure if its a balancing issue, or I just overlooked something:

The game becomes harder and harder towards the desert, up to a point where you need to go through the desert, where basically (on insane) on every single fight some members will die, as they are just one-hit-kills. So the difficulty is ramping up quite A LOT there, up to a point where I thought like "this cannot be intended". With the help of the nearby healing hut and basically recuperating after every single fight I finally managed to get through the desert. At which point I was greeted by much, much easier mobs again.
Which made me thing: Either I missed some way to circumvent the desert, or, the desert is just much, much too difficult compared to the rest.

[Typhon]

Even on Normal difficulty that is the case, Kordanor (about the desert). I agree with you completely about that and about AOE spells. They just don't hit hard enough to be worth it. Fighting 3 enemies at once on Normal, they sometimes can be, but as you progress in the game, reducing your incoming damage by focusing one down becomes the ONLY option.

I love how the game tells you to visit either the southern sage or the norther sage, but the ice area where the northern sage is would demolish anyone trying to do that at the same level as when the southern sage is available.

So, going by my experiences, and what Kordanor describes on the harder difficulty, a lot of the issues seem to be around damage. Both incoming and outgoing. It’s true that from before the desert, through the dwarves, elves, and up to the northern ice area, I haven’t found upgrades to my armor. This has caused me to start running into the issue where bigger enemies, if their RNG decides to crit me, can one shot some of the “medium armor” classes (ex: bard). This also means that their hits to my heavier armor and health characters is hard to fight against with healing spells as they are. I can fight against elemental attacks with ease using the accessories and the wizard buff that makes resistances better. However, if I go long enough without armor upgrades, enemies are getting a lot better while I am staying near the same. I’m not someone that rushes, either. I clear out EVERYTHING I am able to take on and scrounge every corner of a dungeon. I think there is a “higher tier” of armor with SLIGHTLY more armor protection, but it is near impossible to want to get when all of my current armor gives huge statistical benefits. There needs to be another “tier” of armor that gives good bonuses (even if slightly less than the ones before the desert) but has a higher armor value. Oh, and trust me, I use every buff spell that grants bonus armor.

Honestly, there is little to no reason to have a Wizard. Other than the resistance buff, my Mage Knight is less squishy and can cast most of the same buffs. I don’t use his mana for attack spells (because of the issue of physical attacks VS magical), so it is used for those buffs. It would be more beneficial to have another warrior type in that party slot. They could take a hit better and can use resistance accessories to make up for having a low willpower.

In terms of magic VS physical… I think part of the issue is that characters gain strength over time and with point allocation. Masteries tend to only give marginal boosts to spells, but once they get to 5 they stop growing completely. Mastery should be a fairly big bump and then something like Arcane, Knowledge stat, or overall Level should continue to grow spells, even if by a little at a time. Getting the “new and bigger” spells that would be considered an upgrade don’t become worth it primarily because of mana costs.

[Chris Koźmik]

Originally posted by Kordanor:

Which made me thing: Either I missed some way to circumvent the desert, or, the desert is just much, much too difficult compared to the rest.

Yes, desert is much harder than the earlier areas (and areas just beyond it) and that's intentional. I wanted to convey the feeling of a dangerous area. Note it's perfectly traversable (Normal difficulty), even for a not so skilled player, especially if you go back to explore fully previous areas and level up.

[Chris Koźmik]

So, to sum it up so far:
* lowered MP cost for high level spells
* either lowered MP cost of offensive spells or increase damage from those (or both?)
* boost Wizard (how?)
* increase AOE spells damage compared to single target spells
* armor efficiency (reduction by 1 armor point) increased slightly (by 25%?)

[Typhon]

Well, boosting spell damage and lowering high level spell costs would boost Wizard. If you do that, but also still want a boost to Wizard, I think increasing the mana returned by Focus would be enough.

Chris, what about the mentioning of how the hybrid classes are too weak? That really is a point I feel needs being brought up and discussed more. Bard, Battlesmith, Mage Knight, Ranger, and Troubadour. They all need some love. Maybe they won't be so bad if Spells are made stronger, but I don't know. An experimental branch patch might be a good option for testing balance changes. I think Bard and Troubadour would still need something.

I would personally add Champion to that mix. In general, i'm a min maxer when it comes to creating a party (though not as much as others I know). I don't see any real advantage to having a Champion over a Knight or Warrior. Their "specialty bonus" against casters isn't enough. Make them a fighter with a small selection of buffing spells. Enhance their defense against spells. Have them deal a higher amount against casters. Something! Anything! Look at it like this... let's say I Critically hit for 300 damage. 10% would only be another 30 damage. That's amount won't make much of a difference at any point in the game.

Kordanor, or anyone else wanting to chime in, do you have any more thoughts about the Hybrid classes (Fighter/Caster)?

Anyone else have any thoughts on any balance issues, be them ones already brought up or not?

[Kordanor]

Regarding the Hybrid classes I'd like to hear your take about the knowledge attribute.
The dodge might actually be more useful than it appears, but especially because the armor doesn't do much. But overall knowledge on these classes just looks a bit silly.

Also what wasn't mentioned in Chris' List was healing spells. These need to be buffed massively.
One of my viewers actually suggested to me that I should just ressurrect instead of heal as it's more efficient, and...well, she's got a point. There is just no use of healing 20 or even 50 HP if the next hit you take takes down 100-300 HP.
This would then indirectly also buff the bard I guess.

In general Hybrids either need to buff the group as a whole or need higher damage.
It's the "old" problem that it seems to "look" right if a hybrid, let's say does only half the melee damage of a melee fighter and half the damage of the magician.
Point is though, a melee fighter will use his melee attack all the time, the magician will use his magic all the time. They never use the other part. But only then would it "average out".
In addition they are punished twice/triple: They have less mana than mages, they have less arcane than mages which means they do less damage than mages and they have a lower modifier which means they do even less.
I think it could be perfectly fine if they actually had a x5 modifier for melee and x5 modifier for magic damage. They'd still be worse fighters than pure fighters due to lower encumbrance and they'd still be worse mages than mages due to lesser mana and Arcane.

Alternatively, as mentioned before, they'd need to bring something really valuable to the party by other means. While the bard has some buffs at least, that's kind of "boring". The class skill however is so limited in it's use for all classes, that you'd probably either need to change all of them...which on the other hand would also be a nice way to make them stand out more.
An alternative would be some other spells.
But as the game neither has cooldowns, not general resistances it could be rally hard to balance this out (e.g. if you had a stun-spell, you could just stun every turn which would be too powerful. If it had a fail rate of 50% however it would become frustrating).

[Typhon]

I think dodge for them isn't that good. Unless you are putting them in one of the center three positions (which, why would you?), most attacks that hit them are AoE. Sure i've had a rare attack made at them, but it is pretty rare. I'm not even going to go into trap damage reduction. If you want them to be a "hybrid", then give them a hybrid bonus for Knowledge. Half as much crit bonus as a fighter and half as much arcane bonus as a caster. So a little of both.

I don't think they necessarily need the same modifier for physical damage, but they need a reason to use their spells other than healing. If their spells hit harder than even a warrior's attack, then it would be OK (solved if spell damage was overall increased). That way they are a more useful hybrid. They could take a better hit than a wizard, hit harder than one when they are out of mana, and when they have mana they hit harder than a warrior. Sure they wouldn't be as good in a specific area than a specialized class, but the idea is that they have survivability over casters and a stronger "burst" of damage than a fighter. PLUS, adding in a unique spell/buff (see next).

I definitely agree that they each need their own "thing". At the LEAST a buff spell that ONLY they get. I don't count the Moonfire arrow Ranger spell, because the damage isn't enough to use it. However, as that's a Ranger only spell, it at least is an example of something unique to them (or does someone else get that at high levels?).
For example...

• Bard: Increases max health of party.
  
• Battlesmith: Increases damage of physical attacks (go to 20%)
  
• Mage Knight: Increases defense against elements and magic
  
• Ranger: Give them the Speed/Initiative buff and only them.
  
• Troubadour: Increases damage of magical attacks.

Bard and Troubadour ARE boring. That was why I suggested some "flavor" attack spells based around songs. As for damage type, make it physical damage like weapons (or make a Sonic damage type). Their song ability should restore more, 25% instead of 10% perhaps.

[Kordanor]

I ventured a bit forth in the game and the situation changed a bit regarding the single target and AOE spells.

Unfortunately it didn't change for the better though and kinda flipped around.

At around level 37 or so and an arcane level of 344 you will have the four fire spells:

Fireball - Level 5 - 16MP - ALL - 60-80 DMG
Fire Blast - Level 4 - 30 MP - Single - 90-150 DMG
Fire Storm - Level 4 - 40 MP - ALL 120-300 DMG
Molten Blast - Level 3 - 60 MP - Single - 100-300 DMG

I think you can already see the problem. My most powerful spell in my arsenal, even for single targets is currently an AOE spell. While I have a spell in a higher tier, it makes less damage AND takes 50% more mana AND is only for a single target. So the balance in between the different damage spell "tiers" and the level of the spell depending on the Arcane stat is a bit off in general.

While at the beginning AOE did not make sense for groups, now Single Target Spells make no sense for Single Targets.

For Cone of Ice vs Calling of Blizzards in the Ice category it's the same story. Both level 4, ST makes no sense.

[Chris Koźmik]

Working on rebalance for the next version (v1.13). I did this so far:

+ [balance] Power Heal / Mass Power Heal higher efficiency and lower cost.
+ [balance] Offensive spells adjusted, especially the high level ones are cheaper and all enemies vs single target spells damages rebalanced).
+ [balance] Cold spells rebalanced (overall those have now a bigger range of damage and slightly higher average damage than fire spells).