Match engine and the offside rule.......

[uptheterriers]

Just wondering, is there the remotest possibility, after all the years we've had the 3D match engine, that SI could possibly explain how the offside rule works to the coders that work on it?

I'll send you cookies if you do!

(T&C apply. Cookies may not be edible or transferable via current internet technology)

[AoD_lexandro]

The offside rule in game is exactly as stated in the rulebook. I would suggest learning "active & in-active" supplements to the rules.

Also; The game does not and is not supposed to have 100% accurate offside decisions. That would be impossible in the real world, so the game has fuzzy logic to allow for errors by linesmen.

Your cookies are rather salty I am afraid.

[uptheterriers]

If so, then it's 100% in line with an out of date rule book. Goals are not disallowed because a player who is not interfering with play is offside. That is not a case of a tight call, but simply wrong.

As is a forward being called offside when a defender is about a yard goal side of him. Might happen in lower leagues but not in the Premiership when VAR is active.

I am aware some offside calls are supposed to be tight. I've been playing this series off and on since Champ Manager 2. But it's also not supposed to go 100% in favour of the defender either, which is what I've seen so far in my current game which is going into its third season now. Both my forwards and the other teams are called offside pretty much every time they try and beat the offside trap. Now I can except that my team could get it wrong sometimes, but an AI controlled Sergio Aguero? I think not.

[Snorks]

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

If so, then it's 100% in line with an out of date rule book. Goals are not disallowed because a player who is not interfering with play is offside. That is not a case of a tight call, but simply wrong.

Being in an offside position is not an offence according to Law 13 (i think it's 13) unless he is deemed to play or attempt to play the ball, gains an advantage from being in an offside position, or interferes with an opponent. The last one is open to interpretation and is often 'in the opinion of the referee'
Also worth remembering that occasional referee errors ARE coded into the game.

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

As is a forward being called offside when a defender is about a yard goal side of him. Might happen in lower leagues but not in the Premiership when VAR is active.

There needs to be TWO defenders between the attacker and the goal line to be onside. (including the keeper)
Also, VAR isn;t active in the EPL yet IRL so there is nothing to compare it against.

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

I am aware some offside calls are supposed to be tight. I've been playing this series off and on since Champ Manager 2. But it's also not supposed to go 100% in favour of the defender either, which is what I've seen so far in my current game which is going into its third season now. Both my forwards and the other teams are called offside pretty much every time they try and beat the offside trap. Now I can except that my team could get it wrong sometimes, but an AI controlled Sergio Aguero? I think not.

You would need solid data to back up this claim but could be worth uploading the save file to SI if you think it's a bug. AFAIK the stats are pretty close to real life for offsides however the role and duty of your attacker will have a big influence - a DLF for example is less likely to be caught offside than an AF.

[uptheterriers]

Originally posted by Snorks:

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

If so, then it's 100% in line with an out of date rule book. Goals are not disallowed because a player who is not interfering with play is offside. That is not a case of a tight call, but simply wrong.

Being in an offside position is not an offence according to Law 13 (i think it's 13) unless he is deemed to play or attempt to play the ball, gains an advantage from being in an offside position, or interferes with an opponent. The last one is open to interpretation and is often 'in the opinion of the referee'
Also worth remembering that occasional referee errors ARE coded into the game.

When the player in an offside position is standing wide of the far post and the goal comes from a shot from outside the area and goes in off the hear post? That's not a referee error, unless referee corruption is also accounted for in the game.

I'll give you another example I saw just a couple of hours ago:

Player A gets to the byline inside the penalty area and pulls the ball back to player B.

Player B heads the ball to player C, at the same time player A has returned to an onside position.

Player C heads the ball back to Player A who scores.

Goal was disallowed because Player A was offside...... And the replay had the red and yellow lines showing which indicated the offside was calculated not on player A's position when he scored, but his position when he played the initial cutback to player B, even though the relevant position was where player A was when player C headed the ball to him.

That is simply wrong.


So, back to my original question: Is there the remotest possibility that SI are going to fix the implementation of the offside rule in the match engine?

[Snorks]

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

Originally posted by Snorks:

Being in an offside position is not an offence according to Law 13 (i think it's 13) unless he is deemed to play or attempt to play the ball, gains an advantage from being in an offside position, or interferes with an opponent. The last one is open to interpretation and is often 'in the opinion of the referee'
Also worth remembering that occasional referee errors ARE coded into the game.

When the player in an offside position is standing wide of the far post and the goal comes from a shot from outside the area and goes in off the hear post? That's not a referee error, unless referee corruption is also accounted for in the game.

Please consider what 'in the opinion of the referee' means - in offside, you also have the AR responsibilities to consider, and the working relationship between the Referee and his Assistant. If, from the AR's angle of view the player appeared to be interfering then he would/should flag the offside - it is then up to the referee whether he takes this advice from his assistant. Most would IRL.

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

I'll give you another example I saw just a couple of hours ago:

Player A gets to the byline inside the penalty area and pulls the ball back to player B.

Player B heads the ball to player C, at the same time player A has returned to an onside position.

Player C heads the ball back to Player A who scores.

Goal was disallowed because Player A was offside...... And the replay had the red and yellow lines showing which indicated the offside was calculated not on player A's position when he scored, but his position when he played the initial cutback to player B, even though the relevant position was where player A was when player C headed the ball to him.

That is simply wrong.

Sorry, but you are wrong here and I now suspect that most of your knowledge of the Laws comes from pundits and not the Laws themselves. The point at which Player A would be deemed offside would be when Player B heads to player C because A (in an offside position at this point) then received the ball returning from an offside position. It would be 'gaining an advantage from being in an offside position'.

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

So, back to my original question: Is there the remotest possibility that SI are going to fix the implementation of the offside rule in the match engine?

Yes, there is every possibility that SI will send time with officials checking and making sure the Laws are applied correctly (with some error coded in). They will do so once you have spent as much time as they have already spent with match officials, RL referees. In fact, when you have spent as much time as I have with a flag or a whistle, the same hours of monthly meetings discussing Law with other officials, listening to and going through all the FIFA tests on LotG t firstly receive, and then maintain the qualification.

Rather than ranting about it with nothing more than patchy knowledge gleaned from pundits and commentators who's job it is, in part, to create controversy around the game.

[uptheterriers]

Originally posted by Snorks:

[ In fact, when you have spent as much time as I have with a flag or a whistle, the same hours of monthly meetings discussing Law with other officials, listening to and going through all the FIFA tests on LotG t firstly receive, and then maintain the qualification.

Rather than ranting about it with nothing more than patchy knowledge gleaned from pundits and commentators who's job it is, in part, to create controversy around the game.

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply, and bearing in mind your experience I have no hesitation in bowing to your superior knowledge on the rules of the game. My apologies if you took my post as a"rant." It wasn't initially intended that way. Sometimes intended tone is hard to portray tone in written posts. That said, if you'd introduced yourself in your first post, I may have phrased my response differently.

Regarding my first example, all I can say is I have seen that scenario play out in many real matches and can't remember once it resulted in the goal being disallowed. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly, but I can't honestly think of a better way to phrase it.

Regarding my second scenario, it could well be that (with the laws governing the situation being as you've explained), that it may be better if the match engine indicated more clearly where the offside occurred, since as it is now it seems to indicate the position player A was in when he pulled the ball back to player B (a time when he was not offside seeing as he had taken the ball to the byline, not received it there).

Finally a question: According to the rules, how many players have to touch the ball before a player returning from an offside position is no longer considered offside?

[Snorks]

Originally posted by uptheterriers:

Firstly, thanks for taking the time to reply, and bearing in mind your experience I have no hesitation in bowing to your superior knowledge on the rules of the game. My apologies if you took my post as a"rant." It wasn't initially intended that way. Sometimes intended tone is hard to portray tone in written posts. That said, if you'd introduced yourself in your first post, I may have phrased my response differently.

Regarding my first example, all I can say is I have seen that scenario play out in many real matches and can't remember once it resulted in the goal being disallowed. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly, but I can't honestly think of a better way to phrase it.

Regarding my second scenario, it could well be that (with the laws governing the situation being as you've explained), that it may be better if the match engine indicated more clearly where the offside occurred, since as it is now it seems to indicate the position player A was in when he pulled the ball back to player B (a time when he was not offside seeing as he had taken the ball to the byline, not received it there).

Finally a question: According to the rules, how many players have to touch the ball before a player returning from an offside position is no longer considered offside?

N problem and I apolgise for taking it the wrong way - I'll keep my cards in my pocket on this occasion :-)

Yes, in your first example, I can;t disagree - IRL the fluid, quick-thinking and wireless comms help negate these errors and VAR will make it far more accurate when it's introduced in the EPL. However, I think the issue you're having is that this is a coded game and the code can't think/view/react the way a RL referee/AR team can. When I Stopped playing and went into refereeing, I was blown away by the amount of communication there is between a Ref and his Assistants, even in the amateur game without comms sets. Eye contact, small gestures etc are happening all the time (I once won a fair amount of cash off a mate at a non-league game by spot-betting things with him - 10 quid says ther'ell be five minutes added. Fiver says this guys getting carded - before the ref had blown his whistle for the foul - was easy money cos I saw the signal from AR to ref. Don;t worry I paid for a curry that night!)

With your second scenario - without seeing the screenshot itself I can't really comment. Can;t disagree that sometimes the ME lacks a bit in graphical representation though.

To your question, there is no set number of touches at all - this is a myth that has grown through poor commentary and punditry. From your description, the three 'passes' were part of the same piece of action so player A would still be involved. It's a difficult thing to answer specifically as football is such a fluid game, and so much is contextual - if a defender had touched the ball, or Keeper had tried to catch and fumble then player A's 'active' status may have changed. If he had left the field of play he would be deemed as standing on the goal line for offside purposes. If the defender had crossed the goal line, he would also be deemed as on the line for offside purposes.

[uptheterriers]

Originally posted by Snorks:

To your question, there is no set number of touches at all - this is a myth that has grown through poor commentary and punditry. From your description, the three 'passes' were part of the same piece of action so player A would still be involved. It's a difficult thing to answer specifically as football is such a fluid game, and so much is contextual - if a defender had touched the ball, or Keeper had tried to catch and fumble then player A's 'active' status may have changed. If he had left the field of play he would be deemed as standing on the goal line for offside purposes. If the defender had crossed the goal line, he would also be deemed as on the line for offside purposes.

Thanks again for another informative reply....... Not to mention your leniency with the cards!

From the information you've shared here, I have now found at least two or three areas where I have either misunderstood the rules, or just got it plain wrong (..... Or at best out dated! ). And I agree, I could well be expecting too much from the match engine.... Which I guess is a good thing in a way since it means the immersion level is off the charts!

Oh by the way, those cookies are still available (T&C still apply......!!)