Seeing all the Ryo & Shuuji hate hurts

[dxpthroot]

Like yea I get it, in pretty much every route they are either annoying or a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

The problem is when you play the truth route they become objectively the best characters in the game.
Playing that route ruined the characters for me because they suck in every other route but I know what these two characters in particular are capable of being.

[Play_More_KOF]

They both grew on me. Ryo, right after chapter 3, Shuuji, through chapter 4. Understanding how a character's Digimon are often used to reflect some aspect of their inner or ideal selves makes them much more sympathetic. Ryo, wanting to be understood. Shuuji, wanting to live up to their idol's expectations. Their Digimon embody this inner struggle and, these two in particular have a harder time accepting their partners because that reflection of themselves they see hits too close to home and they don't know how to accept that aspect of themselves so, in turn, they can't accept their Digimon. It's really sad and I look forward to seeing happy endings for them in the true path. (I'm only up to the beginning of part 5 so please no spoilers beyond that. ^_^''

[Korinth]

I understand now what the game director meant during the Q&A session from last February

Since Digimon are described as half of one's inner self, there are dark expressions that are not common in conventional Digimon works, such as denying Digimon by refusing to face oneself, or hurting Digimon as a manifestation of self-harm.
If you are a fan of TV anime or other cheerful works, you may find some of the descriptions unpleasant, so please be aware of this in advance.

[Kyschoo]

Cmon, Ryo was kinda ok. But Shuuji please, he's an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. He was obviously the problem here, no excuse. His past does not excuse his action against his cute and lovely partner. His partner tried to be accepted till the end. He's just an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
I will redo the game only for his partner, not him >_<

[Some Black Dude]

Both of these characters are trashbags with severe social/internal disorders, further amplified by the plotline.

It's not "hate", it's simply that the characters were trash.

Ryo is a pessimistic, antisocial coward who never got over his mother's illness.

Shuuji is a complete asshat who THRUST HIMSELF in a leadership role due to some odd (Japanese?) concept of age, despite his gaping inconsistencies and personality disorders due to abject expectations and abuse. This is further complicated by him uhhh...beating up a digital monster just to get his ass ate by it...(lol, literally).

Both characters are hot garbage. I don't get this "love" for them. Some of yall have baby food for emotions. Must've come from Reddit or Twitter.

[dxpthroot]

Originally posted by Kyschoo:

Cmon, Ryo was kinda ok. But Shuuji please, he's an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. He was obviously the problem here, no excuse. His past does not excuse his action against his cute and lovely partner. His partner tried to be accepted till the end. He's just an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
I will redo the game only for his partner, not him >_<

Okay but in the truth route most of what you're referring to literally never happens

[dxpthroot]

Originally posted by Some Black Dude:

Both of these characters are trashbags with severe social/internal disorders, further amplified by the plotline.

It's not "hate", it's simply that the characters were trash.

Ryo is a pessimistic, antisocial coward who never got over his mother's illness.

Shuuji is a complete asshat who THRUST HIMSELF in a leadership role due to some odd (Japanese?) concept of age, despite his gaping inconsistencies and personality disorders due to abject expectations and abuse. This is further complicated by him uhhh...beating up a digital monster just to get his ass ate by it...(lol, literally).

Both characters are hot garbage. I don't get this "love" for them. Some of yall have baby food for emotions. Must've come from Reddit or Twitter.

Have you played the truth route yet?
Because that specifically is what I'm referring to

[McMuffin]

Originally posted by Some Black Dude:

Both of these characters are trashbags with severe social/internal disorders, further amplified by the plotline.

Haven´t completed the game (currently part 4 or 5) so I absolutely agree with you but the other aspect is that the more extreme a characters flaws are the more satisfaction can be found if they get over them in their arc/development.

The bigger problem I see and as a response to the OP is the circumstances of the game and the characters.
As an adult I judge the situations completely different and I KNOW I need to look out for those asshats even if I don´t want to since the environment is unknown and dangerous.
But if I were to put myself in the shoes of our cast (12-14 years old) the whole thing changes.
At 12 I would have been to shy to even talk to those idiots and tried to avoid them.
At 14 (after I found my pair of balls so to speak ;)) I would most likely be annoyed at Ryo and avoided him.
Shuuji on the other hand would be a target for open hostility, maybe even some good old hand throwing.

Their characters are just so extremely irritating and needy that it´s hard to swallow. In the early chapters they get completely carried because the rest of the YOUNGER children can keep their ♥♥♥♥ together.

Maybe I will experience the same thing as you after they change for the better but as stock characters in the beginning they are just dead weight.

[Play_More_KOF]

Maybe it's just because I'm older but I have a bit more patience for children behaving poorly. Especially kids dealing with trauma which both Ryo and Shuuji are. To be clear, they're not dealing with it in a healthy way in the basic story route; quite the opposite.

To spell it out, their Digimon are their inner selves personified and they're insanely abusive towards themselves as depicted in this roundabout way through their Digimon. The intent is to use a fantasy setting to show just how awful that kind of language when you talk about yourself, for instance, looks to outside observers and it also gives people who deal with this kind of thing a chance to have that outsider perspective before they realize they might relate with the character. To be blunt, Ryo's death was all the "proof" Shuuji needed that his father was right and that he was a failure. And he doesn't have healthy coping patterns so instead he spirals. But unlike the other kids who find themselves spiraling from time to time in their dire situation, Shuuji refuses to reach out to his juniors because he has trouble asking for help as he feels like he'd be failing his father's expectations. His dad left him in a lose/lose situation and his abusive behavior set Shuuji up for failure which, as is sometimes the case with those who experience trauma, they can potentially go on to hurt others. "Hurt people hurt people," as the saying goes.

The true ending presumably sees these characters able to deal with their issues eventually in a healthier light though so it would be best to see that story path before casting final judgement, but if you hate them, you hate them. It really isn't too big of a deal. I think it's very understandable so many have had this knee-jerk reaction as I think that was the developer's intent. Once again highlighted for me that I judge people too quickly.

[KPL]

I'm only at chapter 3 and ryo attitude make me want to tell him to stfu already

[Jason Eroge]

both also the oldest in group lolol

[Wraith]

People hate Ryo?
I thought people would feel more sorry for him.
He in a traumatic experience and his condition was getting worst as you go down the parts

Shuuji however....
Yah I see no problem hating him

[dxpthroot]

Originally posted by Wraith:

People hate Ryo?
I thought people would feel more sorry for him.
He in a traumatic experience and his condition was getting worst as you go down the parts

Shuuji however....
Yah I see no problem hating him

Ryo is more people find him incredibly annoying

as for Shuuji, in the truth route he never devolves into what he is in the other routes so his characterization is like night and day

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I know this is an older thread, but rather than make a new one..

I get Ryo's deal and while I think he's an annoying jerk, it's plain from the get-go that he's pretty much a broken mess who only gets worse.

Shuuji, on the other hand, really doesn't have that excuse. You can't use the context of the Truth route to defend him because that is literally a different version of the character. I'd say pretty much all the hate stems from how he behaves in any of the "normal" routes.

To any outsider, it's practically child abuse the way he treats Lopmon. Someone can make comparisons to self-harm and the like but to both the viewer and the other kids this looks <b>extremely</b> cruel and unjustified. Especially for anyone playing the game for the first time who don't have access to the "better" route.

Basically I was looking around to see what others had to say about Shuuji cause I'm in like part 5 (going to be doing Moral) and nearly every time Shuuji opens his gob I just wanna hit him or scream cause he's causing so much trouble not just for Lopmon but the other kids. It is so extremely toxic and from what I understand of Japan this.. is practically what they <i>expect or encourage</i> because they have a VERY hands off policy on how kids deal with mental health and stress issues.

The part after <spoiler>Ryo dies</spoiler> and Minoru is questioning why he just watched and/or ignored what was happening is a very, very real situation for Japanese kids. Not unlike how their work culture tends to grind people into the dirt, kids are expected to just "deal with it" on their own, and if you can't.. well, there's a reason they have a suicide forest.

In part 4, when Aoi calls Shuuji out on his cowardly, unhelpful behaviour and saying he's doing nothing to help anyone.. I was applauding cause I half expected nobody to say anything. Kaito is great, I can see how love/concern for Miu and also his unwillingness to let others get caught up/hurt for his sake. He cares but in an odd way. Ryo is also not-so-bad at times and when he's conversing with Takuma and has moments of clarity you see he's not really a bad person, he's just absolutely torn up inside.

But Shuuji... the game presents him in such a horrible, unlikeable way. I still can't really decide if the devs expected players to take pity on him or if he was meant to be a hatesink from the start, but from what I've seen elsewhere online that's pretty much what he is. Truth route or not, people can't get over the impression of him from any of the other routes.

[funewchie]

(Side Note: To use spoiler tags on Steam, you have to use square brackets, so it comes out as [spoiler] Your information here. [/spoiler] )
--

That's what adds complication to the matter, is that there's also a cultural difference to factor in.

The audience is likely meant to sympathize with Shuuji... in Japan.
Meanwhile, in the West, everyone wants to punch him squarely in the face (and rightly so). But that's the culture difference for you.

Westerners don't often put up with bull crap, while other lands do.
----

With Ryo, chances are, a foreign character likely would get him to chill out, hearing him out and everything. Being a buddy.
In the Truth route, that's what saves Ryo, by Takuma figuring out that Ryo needs someone to talk to and help him, a thought kind of unusual in Japan.
In other routes, Takuma does realize the same thing... but far too late to help.

As for Shuuji... putting it politely, he needs one heck of a slice of humble pie.
Putting it truthfully...... he needs a well-deserved punch in the face (followed by a kick in the groin).
They went too far with him, and definitely made him a hate sink.
----

To be fair, that's not a Digimon thing, that's a Japanese Visual Novel issue.

Where they tell you to pick what you would do in the hero's shoes... except I personally wouldn't pick any of the choices, and not be as big a wimp as a typical JPN VN protagonist is.

It's why those types of VNs... can really get under my skin at times. I like them, but that culture difference can really drag the fun down at times.
(That, and their really weird sense of narrative timing. A character has just been brutally killed, and the following chapter is lighthearted and quickly has everyone cracking jokes about another character's behavior? Talk about a mood whiplash.)