Thoughts on the game [spoilers]

[SomeGuy322]

Hey! Coal Valley, I'm @RobProductions on Twitter.

So I just finished the game and left you a review. I'm very impressed and absolutely enjoyed my time playing. I've posted all the positives on my review, so now I'd like to discuss a few nitpicky topics if you don't mind. Don't get me wrong -- the game is perfectly fine how it is and I wouldn't expect any of this stuff to get changed in an update, but as a fellow developer I know sometimes it can be worthwhile to take a step back and see what can be considered/improved for future projects. Obviously I know development is difficult and it can be tough to get everything finished in time, but for the sake of discussion I'll go ahead and list some thoughts anyways. Spoilers on everything in here!

• Maze - you've already got some feedback on this so I won't say any more. I didn't actually have much issue with it but it did take longer than I expected and was somewhat tedious, especially since I didn't know it would happen and I just wanted to explore the room at that point. What might've helped is blocking off parts of the maze that you've already explored. I noticed that you can actually go all the way back to the starting room even though the gear puzzle is somewhere far away. If I had been blocked from going back that far I could've known the solution was closer and got it done sooner.
  
• Spoilers in the steam discussion - I sadly read the title of a certain post in these forums and had a certain plot point on the mind. In the future you may wanna look into deleting the threads or editing the title for posts like these since they detract from enjoyment of the game. I know that sounds intrusive but moderation is a key part of building a community.
  
• Moving objects - when you examine an object and leave, it just kinda falls down wherever you look at. This creates a lot of clutter on the floor and makes it hard to sort through a lot of junk that piles up around the drawers. I know I had a hard time sorting through a lot of pictures and stuff near the bed but it wasn't too bad. To fix this, it would've been nice to have a feature to move objects without examining them, so that you can organize them physically in the room. That has the added bonus of letting users "customize" their room with "decorations", and would make for some nice screenshots! Otherwise, maybe a "return" button to put the object back where it started would be good. But that's just a thought, I realize it can maybe break some parts of the game (if you fling stuff off the island or something).
  
• Clipboard - the one in the room actually spoils a puzzle. I was able to read the tiny piece of paper icon that said 35, even though you crossed over it with an 8. I knew that it must be a number that fits on the combo lock and I actually finished that puzzle early. So in fact I did it out of order, without even needing to log into the computer! Not sure if that was intentional but it's something to note. I didn't have a problem with it since I did everything anyways, but you don't want other players missing out on certain content.
  
• Inventory - Can get cluttered at times, having stacks of corn or photo paper and without a change in icon it's hard to tell which is which. Minor gripe though since nothing is time based. But perhaps limiting stacks of corn is worthwhile, or maybe expanding the inventory screen size and shrinking the buttons so less scrolling is necessary. Just a thought.
  
• I actually did the rotating rooms thing out of order somehow. I think I broke the sequence by falling strategically to some wall platform in the big room, again I don't know if it was intentional. It just didn't seem right. Lemme know if you need a detailed explanation there.
  
• Story - You've already gotten feedback on the ending, and sadly I have to agree that it's a little abrupt. It really would've been nice to have a bigger reveal at the end, or some sort of post credits scene which explains more/covers the other characters and their perspectives on Liam. It's hard to really tell the significance of a lot of stuff without more dialogue, which I know is kind of the point. But at least having some more connections to outside of Liam's coma could go a long way. Like the thing about drug trade wasn't clear enough, did he try to step in and stop it? How does the zoo connect to him? Or the bird? Or the car? I realize they are likely important moments in his life/dreams, but without an outside connection there is no sense to the things we see. I suppose the car is what he crashed in, right? In that case, I feel like there may not be enough of a moral/point to the story, especially since he ends in a loop and the feeling is as though nothing got solved.
  
• Voice acting - not entirely in your control. But as a voice director I would say for the future you can ask your main voice actor to be a little more serious in his delivery. Later parts of the game were pretty good about that actually, but early on the accent is a little much to handle. He sounded like a skater from the early 2000s (which I know was intentional) but it sounded like he was straining to really make it whimsical. I think some more tempered tones and serious questions on the world around him could've contrasted nicely with the funny dialogue/events and make the situation seem more realistic, and therefore more impactful. Again, adjusting the ending with this tone in mind also could've gone a long way in my opinion, perhaps like a scene where he wakes up briefly, or hears more people upset/emotional over what happened. The "starting over" twist is good, but didn't invoke as much emotion as it could've with such a heavy topic that was core to the plot. Again, just ideas, and I wouldn't want you to compromise your core vision here. Perhaps the sillyness is intentional and maybe the game is more fun for that, who knows. I'm just giving my own preferences here.

I hope that didn't sound overly critical. I'm just giving my general thoughts and again, this is just stuff to consider for whatever you make next. I always find it's best to look at my past work once it's done and see what I could've done differently to make it more enjoyable for people. But worrying about that right away is not a good idea. Better to relax and look at how you succeeded with the game at first, and then when you start up development for something else try and come back to these points to see what can be done there. That's my development process anyways.

And heck, I could never have made a game like this where I am right now. You have a huge dedication to game development, I can tell that. And again I'm really inspired by what you've made here. This game is very well polished in my eyes, so any feedback here is just little nitpicks. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on my points as I'm always looking to improve in development as well. I'm also interested in your development workflow/ideology since your art is very impressive, so I'm always down to talk about that stuff! Congrats again on the release, and I'll be looking forward to whatever you have in store next :)

[CoalValleyGames]

Hey, man!
Thanks a lot for spending so much time in the game and now for all the feedback!
You really put a lot of effort into this. You're right, it's always beneficial to talk about it, even if it's only for the next project.
I don't know if that's only me, but I think I'm not going to make a similar game anytime near in the future. I always wanted to have a narrative game done and now that I have - I think I'll move on to some other things, but we'll see what the future brings :).
I wish I had a few testers during the dev time, because there are many things the community brought up that makes the experience even better, but as you probably know - working and testing alone makes you blind about certain aspects of your game.
Can't make any promises about future changes in the updates, but I'm listening, gathering and picking the things that are doable in a reasonable time.
Now, about the list:
- Maze - that's actually a good idea and it would make it easier for some people for sure, but I think would have to think about a way to close it without any seams with some geometry that matches a certain corner or something. I don't like invisible walls in games and I'm trying to avoid them as much as possible.
- Spoilers - you're right, I was hesitating, but I deleted the topic. Is there a button for editing the title, though? I couldn't find it, so I just deleted it.
- Moving objects - that's a really cool feature, I wish I had thought about it before. Now it's a bit late to make this change, there's many things involved that could break the game for players.
- Clipboard - heh, I thought it wouldn't be readable anymore! Good point, but at least it's the last bit, so it's not that important anyway. And the laptop is also useful for the safe combination.
- Inventory - this is something other people also talked about (stacking the same type of objects into one) and I may try implementing that later on, if time permits.
- Rotating room - that's a good thing I think - I didn't have any particular way or order in mind. I'm always trying to make a few ways for people to find their own.
- Story/Voices - this is something I was aiming to achieve - a bit fractured memory of the things that happened. Maybe it was a bit too fractured. I also wanted to have it a bit bitter-sweet, that's why it's not too serious most of the time. I wanted to achieve a mood like in the "The Last Man on Earth" Tv series, where the character knows he's in a serious and cr@ppy situation, but he's not very serious about it :).
I really didn't want it to be too dramatic.

You brought some good points in there and if I had a few testers before, I certainly would've made it even better. This is where having a team really helps for sure :) (also - helping with the workload is a plus too, heh!).

[SomeGuy322]

It's no problem, thank you for pursuing your vision and making this neat story for us to enjoy.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

I don't know if that's only me, but I think I'm not going to make a similar game anytime near in the future. I always wanted to have a narrative game done and now that I have - I think I'll move on to some other things, but we'll see what the future brings :).

Totally understandable, I feel the same after I've worked on something for a while. Whatever you make next I'm sure it'll be amazing as well.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

- Maze - that's actually a good idea and it would make it easier for some people for sure, but I think would have to think about a way to close it without any seams with some geometry that matches a certain corner or something. I don't like invisible walls in games and I'm trying to avoid them as much as possible.

I was thinking just another door that closes behind you. Though I'm not sure if that would ruin the "immersion" of the maze by having a clear goal. But maybe something like that is also worthwhile for those having a tough time figuring out where to go. Just a thought.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

- Spoilers - you're right, I was hesitating, but I deleted the topic. Is there a button for editing the title, though? I couldn't find it, so I just deleted it.

I'm not sure, I haven't played around with many of the mod tools on Steam. But yeah sadly deleting is the only thing you can do in that case. Maybe in the future you can split your thread categories - have one category for story discussion and warn of spoilers. That way the default "general topics" pops up first and then users have to go in deeper to actually find spoiler topics. The main thing you want to do is avoid people clicking a single link to discussions and seeing spoilers. On that note, I'd also recommend a separate thread category for bug fixing so that you can keep things organized and mark the bugs as fixed so people can see at a glance what you've done to keep the game updated.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

- Moving objects - that's a really cool feature, I wish I had thought about it before. Now it's a bit late to make this change, there's many things involved that could break the game for players.

Right, that was my worry. Something to think about for next time, then! Perhaps that other "return to original position" button may be easier to code, but even then it's just a small nitpick and not really necessary.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

- Inventory - this is something other people also talked about (stacking the same type of objects into one) and I may try implementing that later on, if time permits.

Yeah, and I don't necessarily mean stacking objects since that's a lot of work. Really I mean there's only one use for the corn item, so why are there so many corns in the world? Or the booze thing, I didn't understand why there were several bottles of it available. Again, really not a huge deal, but when you have a tiny puzzle-based inventory it can get cluttered. Same goes for the first-aid candies, but there's not much else you can do about that. 2 vertical rows of inventory instead of just the one would really solve all of these problems. But I'm not sure if you have the screen space for that.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

- Story/Voices - this is something I was aiming to achieve - a bit fractured memory of the things that happened. Maybe it was a bit too fractured. I also wanted to have it a bit bitter-sweet, that's why it's not too serious most of the time. I wanted to achieve a mood like in the "The Last Man on Earth" Tv series, where the character knows he's in a serious and cr@ppy situation, but he's not very serious about it :).
I really didn't want it to be too dramatic.

Got it, that makes sense then. It's really more a personal preference so I appreciate that you kept it consistent and followed your vision on this. Sometimes I find that when I listen to other people with differing opinions too much the work becomes... not my own, and that leads to inconsistencies which actually make the game feel worse. So I find the best thing to do is just to listen to what people have to say but not feel like I have to appeal to them alone. Really all that matters is how you feel about it, and the kind of experience you want to give to your players. I did enjoy the light tone during the humorous moments, I guess it's really just the ending reveal which made me feel like things should've been darker. Again, personal taste there.

Originally posted by CoalValleyGames:

You brought some good points in there and if I had a few testers before, I certainly would've made it even better. This is where having a team really helps for sure :) (also - helping with the workload is a plus too, heh!).

Yeah, for sure. Still, I'm impressed that you made this without much testing and I can't imagine all the hard hours of labor put into all those art assets.

In a month or two I might start doing test runs for parts of my game, and if you have the time, I'd really love to have your feedback on it! Your dedication to art is apparent here and that's something I struggle with a lot. My visual style is definitely a bit different from yours but I'm always willing to learn and improve the best I can. Let me know if you'd be down for something like that, and I can send my progress to you when the game is in a better state :)

Wishing you best of luck in your future projects, and for the success of Oneiros!

[CoalValleyGames]

Multiple corns are really only for an achievement. On the other hand, you only need 2 vodka bottles, so I get your point. I didn't want to drop only 2 bottles there, but I also didn't want to make the rest non-interactive-able, because that would confuse the hell out of players.

Sometimes I find that when I listen to other people with differing opinions too much the work becomes... not my own, and that leads to inconsistencies which actually make the game feel worse.

I really know what you mean - I've previously worked in a bigger team and felt that way all the time. We all had slightly different visions for the same things and partly that's why it's so hard to create a great, consistent game. Many factors have to come into line and that's so difficult when there's different people involved.

About the tests - sure, no problem :)! Just drop me a message on twitter whenever you're ready :). Thanks again for checking out the game!

[Causality]

Yeah, the controls/interface are really the only thing I don't like about the game. I play on Switch and some choices are just baffling. Like interacting with an item and then putting it in your inventory are two different buttons, A and then X. Selecting inventory items are the L and R buttons, and using an item from inventory is X. That could've all been done with just the control stick and the A button. Having to get the cursor exactly on a tiny item to interact with it when it's the only interactable thing in the room is also pointless. The interact button should apply to the thing closest to your cursor even if you're not pointing exactly at it.