Symbolism in the game.

[Feel]

Still more interesting.

I think, the Mathematician symbolizes Nature (in the global sense, the Universe) with its own natural laws, the order of things, and incomplete knowledge. The Cylinder symbolizes either the inevitability of death through aging, or harmony - here I need to analyze more.

The fact is that the Cylinder can be stopped - this is either an attempt to disrupt harmony, or an attempt to slow down the approach of death. The fact that trebnums are able to accumulate mutations and transform is either a life experience or a variety of life.

However, I am more inclined to believe that the Cylinder is harmony, not aging, because the text mentions "the ego that breaks the order".

The idea of the inevitability of death came when I drew attention to the names, to objects in the style of Salvador Dali, to the behavior of Cylinder helpers who are engaged in burning out analogies of memories, when the brain loses strength, memory deteriorates, thoughts come to calmness and greater harmony with Nature - old age.

Google translate.

[Garamoth]

I think you're looking too far into it. The "nature documentary" setting makes the meaning fairly clear: it's about an ecosystem literally being steamrolled by a "civilized" species. All we're missing are the condos and shopping malls on the other side.

The twist is that it's not humanity doing the destroying, we've been smooshed and assimilated ourselves. The other species seems to keep part of what they destroy, the same way we keep the DNA of extinct species to "save" them or put a tiger in a cage between two ferns to "recreate its habitat".

[Jonas Kyratzes]

Originally posted by Garamoth:

I think you're looking too far into it. The "nature documentary" setting makes the meaning fairly clear: it's about an ecosystem literally being steamrolled by a "civilized" species. All we're missing are the condos and shopping malls on the other side.

The Trebhum themselves had a civilization. Nothing in the game suggests civilization is bad.

The Cylinder's philosophy is spelled out quite explicitly when you're inside...

[Garamoth]

As per video game cliches, "ancient" civilizations are usually okay. I mean, they're buddy-buddy with intergalactic snakes because of the power of song, that's pretty chill.

But it's been a while since I played, what does it say in the cylinder?

[Jonas Kyratzes]

Check out this bit, for example.

[Garamoth]

Oh ok, that's like JRPG villain motivation #3: to end suffering I'm going to kill everybody. I'll make everything "as one", mwaHAHA!!!

Still, my point remains. The Cylinder is literally steamrolling wetlands and other cultures to make everything nice and smooth and homogenized and "safe" on the other side. If the subtext is not clear enough, there's not much more I can add.

[Jonas Kyratzes]

As the writer of this game, with a 20-year history of games that explore philosophy, I beg to differ.

And if you don't recognize what this is referencing, or don't want to engage with the game's themes regarding the dialectical nature of reality, that's fine - but don't dismiss it as random nonsense.

[Garamoth]

Well, ouch.

Okay, sorry, what's your interpretation, then?

Wait... Is this a good time to mumble something about the death of the author?

(eyes the door and runs out of the room while everyone is distracted)

[Jonas Kyratzes]

I don't want to impose my authorial interpretation! I just wanted to point out there's interesting stuff there, not just random nonsense. The whole game is very carefully written to explore its themes and to present a cohesive (if surreal) world.

[Garamoth]

(does Google search)

Zeno Clash: Artifacts of Chaos, huh? Wow. Wait, so you came up with "While there is no justice, there will be no law" ? That's like the most quotable thing I've heard in a video game in a long time. I've been meaning to scream that to someone at work, but the right occasion remains elusive. :-/

Not sure what you mean by dialectical nature of reality, but the Sand Plague in Pathologic 2 delivered me the same speech as the Cylinder, sometimes word for word, but I think it made a more compelling case, in my opinion, despite being a deadly virus from a game I played during Covid. I can't say I took the Cylinder's argument seriously for a second. I guess being a big smooshing cylinder hurts its credibility. Heck, even the smooshed are working against it covertly.

In Pathologic 2, all the world's magic creatures literally show up on your doorstep, begging you not to kill them with your rational, life-saving and individuality-preserving science, because it will break the oneness of Earth and kill magic, I guess? There's a good/bad ending too in Pathologic 2, and they're ambiguous enough that I'd cal them the mundane/magic endings. But even then, the ending where the "let's all become one to end suffering" entity gets its way still looks like a raw deal to me.

I think what makes The Eternal Cylinder special is its ecological fable aspect, with the David Attenborough-esque narrator and the nature mockumentary setting, and especially the unusual spot humanity occupies in the story. Eternal Cylinder is going on my mental shelf next to Pom Poko and Endling. I wish the game had leaned more on those aspects, instead of veering dangerously close to JRPG plot territory. But hey, those are my two cents as a random person on the Internet.

Well anyway, keep up the good work, looking forward to Talos II.

[Jonas Kyratzes]

Originally posted by Garamoth:

(does Google search)

Zeno Clash: Artifacts of Chaos, huh? Wow. Wait, so you came up with "While there is no justice, there will be no law" ? That's like the most quotable thing I've heard in a video game in a long time. I've been meaning to scream that to someone at work, but the right occasion remains elusive. :-/

Hah, thanks! I understand how you feel.

Not sure what you mean by dialectical nature of reality, but the Sand Plague in Pathologic 2 delivered me the same speech as the Cylinder, sometimes word for word, but I think it made a more compelling case, in my opinion, despite being a deadly virus from a game I played during Covid. I can't say I took the Cylinder's argument seriously for a second. I guess being a big smooshing cylinder hurts its credibility. Heck, even the smooshed are working against it covertly.

In Pathologic 2, all the world's magic creatures literally show up on your doorstep, begging you not to kill them with your rational, life-saving and individuality-preserving science, because it will break the oneness of Earth and kill magic, I guess? There's a good/bad ending too in Pathologic 2, and they're ambiguous enough that I'd cal them the mundane/magic endings. But even then, the ending where the "let's all become one to end suffering" entity gets its way still looks like a raw deal to me.

I think what makes The Eternal Cylinder special is its ecological fable aspect, with the David Attenborough-esque narrator and the nature mockumentary setting, and especially the unusual spot humanity occupies in the story. Eternal Cylinder is going on my mental shelf next to Pom Poko and Endling. I wish the game had leaned more on those aspects, instead of veering dangerously close to JRPG plot territory. But hey, those are my two cents as a random person on the Internet.

Well anyway, keep up the good work, looking forward to Talos II.

Perhaps the reason you associate these ideas with JRPGs is that they are very prominent in Buddhism, and those games may be reacting to that. I think you're doing yourself a bit of disservice there, though - these beliefs about the source of suffering in the world being division, the existence of the self/ego, are very significant in the history of philosophy.

That doesn't mean you have to agree with them! I certainly don't.

The dialectical nature of reality, in simple terms, is that things come about from the interaction between opposites - from division, from the *lack* of Oneness. Some would say this is bad, this is the primal cause of all suffering. The game argues that it's fundamentally good.

There is a marked contrast between the idea of Oneness as represented by the Cylinder, and the idea of the Many, as represented by the Trebhum and the Trewhaala, who are different and unique but come together.

Much of the game is a defense of the *value* of this dialectical nature, a repudiation of what the Cylinder stands for.

There's not really an ecological fable in the game. There's an ecological disaster, certainly, but the Cylinder in no way represents civilization. The loss of the Trebhum civilization is a tragedy, and humanity is ultimately quite helpful.

(This is all somewhat simplified, obviously.)