On the movie myth of 'casting' swords

[Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon]

It's a trope in cinema to portray the process of forging a sword as involving casting with molten metal. the reality of the thing is that this can only be done with soft metals like bronze or copper. If you were to try and cast an iron sword what you would end up with is a sword that shatters on the first or second strike. For iron (or steel which is just iron with a lot more carbon) and all other harder elements, the metal must be worked with a hammer so that the crystal structure of the atoms will link in many different directions making the final blade not just strong but also flexible.

I thought it would be interesting and maybe useful to call attention to this.
there are a bunch of youtube videos on this subject it's probably simpler to just let folks look those up as they like.
might be fun to discuss it.

[H'Sishi]

Every steel starts its career in liquid form, means it gets cast. Once it's cooled down just enough to become solid (but still glowing red) it gets rolled to form sheets or wires.
The wires can be woven into ropes; ropes and sheets then can be forged further.

If you make the mistake to cast a sword and let it cooling down completely without forging it while it's still glowing hot, you get the mentioned brittle result.

[Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon]

there's a BIG difference between modern steel manufacturing and what you'd expect to see in a setting that is roughly similar to the middle ages. I think a Dwarven forge would probably not be QUITE that primitive but it is also hard to imagine it would resemble a modern steel refinery. Modern Blast furnaces indeed produce massive amounts of molten iron but it was rarely so simple in the middle ages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHS0NXr1xbk

[H'Sishi]

Indeed, but modern manufacturing is based on the experience of millions of smiths through the past millenias.
Sure, the processes got optimized and the metalurgists these days know tons of recipes so any steel alloy has the desired properties with the least effort. But the craftmanship is still important and celebrated.

Past smiths added carbon "by accident" into the metal when they heated the steel in the coal. The more often they folded a metal sheet, the more carbon was left in.
They didn't know *why* (on chemical base) repeatedly folding lead to better blades (at least to a certain point) but they eventually knew *that* the process did so.

Anyway, every fresh new blade began its life as cast iron which then got improved by forging. But a game (even a game which tries to give a deeper insight into the craftmanship) will not let the player spent hundreds of hours just to make a *single raw blade*. The creation needs to be shortened into a gamer-friendly process which lets lof of things out :( .

[Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon]

...But a game (even a game which tries to give a deeper insight into the craftmanship) will not let the player spent hundreds of hours just to make a *single raw blade*. The creation needs to be shortened into a gamer-friendly process which lets lof of things out :( .

Of course not and you wouldn't want it to because it would be mind numbing and it would be a game that was ONLY about that.

so then how would you go about creating a forging system that preserved the feeling and the excitement of forging a blade without turning it into something that is.....just work you aren't being paid for?

;)

[Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon]

you know I've been thinking about this thread for a while and it occurred to me that I would actually rather enjoy reaping the rewards of standing in one place folding metal for hours early on in the game to produce a sword or an ax that was going to be OP . I wouldn't like it if I had to to do it but being able to would be cool.

[Bandy]

Originally posted by H'Sishi:

Every steel starts its career in liquid form, ...

No "liquid" in forging swords in days past (except for bronze swords...).
Are you confusing smelting? It is purification of raw material (ore) containing lots of impurities, that is a very different process, and separate from making a sword other than achieving the purer starting material.

Vid below an example of both smelting iron ore, and then making the steel, and finally forging the steel with traditional methods into a sword. The details may change from place to place but these fundamentals were the same everywhere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_4zHNcieM

Originally posted by H'Sishi:

...Anyway, every fresh new blade began its life as cast iron which then got improved by forging. ...

Again, no, old swords are not "cast". The iron is smelted into an ingot, add carbon to the ingot in a forge and make steel, the steel is then forged into a sword. OP is correct, swords are not "cast" but for a game mechanic, the real multistage process would be tedious, on that we agree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=namXt4Etn_o

[Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon]

Trying to cast an iron sword straight away never working the iron can not produce a usable sword so far as I know (perhaps there is some method I do not know of? I'm not going to feel ashamed about not knowing every method that exists).

So far as I understand it, iron and steel ( the distinction being the material process since they are the same atom) must be worked (Hammered, folded and so forth) both for the purpose of shaping the metal and for the purpose reducing and disrupting the crystal lattice of a metal which results from it's atomic structure.

If this is not done, then it is well known that crystals cleave along their largest line of symmetry and since the crystal lattice of iron is potentially quite large un-worked iron will form a lattice large enough that this line of symmetry can run from edge to edge.

if there is some error in this anyone here is free to let me know, but please explain because I am always learning.

I have said so in the past but , I think I would have no problem unleashing my relentless autism on working the iron for an early game steel sword for hours just so that i could giggle about how it continues to be my best sword for more than half the game.

that sort of thing sounds fun to me. I wouldn't want to 'HAVE TO" do it, but I would like to be "ABLE" to do it.

I think our 'forge bro' H'Sishi is talking about contemporary industrial forging processes maybe. I am not familiar enough with the modern mass manufacturing of steel parts. I do know that there are a LOT of innovations between traditional sword making and industrial scale mass manufacturing, like surprisingly most of the "Steel" out there is not Pure iron but alloys instead and I know that industrial furnaces are MUCH MUCH hotter and that their temperatures are incredibly stable.

there are lots of youtube videos around where people have tried to cast iron swords straight away, it does not work out.

[Bandy]

Originally posted by Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon:

Trying to cast an iron sword ...
blah, blah, blah...

Did you even read the post just above or watch just a little of vids linked? Doesn't look like to me, because then you say something so profoundly wrong...

iron and steel (the distinction being the material process since they are the same atom)... [blah, blah, blah]...

Iron and steel the same atom? Seriously, look something up first before just typing what you feel.
https://monroeengineering.com/blog/iron-vs-steel-whats-the-difference/

I'm done here...

[Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon]

Originally posted by Bandy:

Originally posted by Turbo-Laser Ninjadragon:

Trying to cast an iron sword ...
blah, blah, blah...

Did you even read the post just above or watch just a little of vids linked? Doesn't look like to me, because then you say something so profoundly wrong...

iron and steel (the distinction being the material process since they are the same atom)... [blah, blah, blah]...

Iron and steel the same atom? Seriously, look something up first before just typing what you feel.
https://monroeengineering.com/blog/iron-vs-steel-whats-the-difference/

I'm done here...

Why am I surprised that somebody who writes things like "Blah blah blah" didn't think deeply about the content of my post or the ones that preceded it?
the amount of Scathe on these forums for people who've made minor mistakes is unbelievable. Any opportunity to be jerky eh?

Iron and steel contain the same ELEMENT. I should have been more clear but I was sick and I was half asleep.

Why don't you develop some grace? People are not always on their A-game. Stop being such an insecure social opportunist. Human imperfection is not an license for you to go around mocking others.

if you read ANY of my other posts you'd see that I DO know the difference and just verbalized it wrongly. Maybe you think you look witty you don't , you look like someone without empathy, or grace.

steel is a composite of Iron and Carbon. Carbon isn't a metal. did it occur to you that there was a friendly way to correct me?

this is a pretty friendly forum, maybe you could make an effort. like, ANY EFFORT.

Friendly...cooperative...helpful forum...not PVP. I know you think it's PVP but it isn't.

there's a point to this thread>

*Iron swords were not cast as is shown in movies* that's it. if you don;t have anything to say about it then don't say anything. I thought it was an interesting subject because lots of people actually don't know that. Maybe you already did GOOD FOR YOU!

Take it easy fellah