Is it just me or are cannons borderline useless compared to mortars?

[Joseph Sneed]

I have played and finished the campaign in all games in the series and normally the mortars and cannons are fairly well balanced with both working fairly well in different situations but in CW4 the mortars feel vastly superior to cannons. Normally in prior games I found myself using mortars to clear deep pools and hold positions along walls with cannons used for support and pushing but in CW4 literally the only time I found myself using cannons was to clean up small pools that would get to close to mortars that they did not really target as they simply do not seem to pack the same punch. Is this just me or did anyone else feel the same way?

[Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia]

Cannons can also be told to prioritise mesh over creeper and so are very useful for pushing against emitters surrounded by mesh or to stop mesh crossing void. But most difficulty comes from large quantities of creeper against which mortars are superior, cannons are cheaper though and can be built in a hurry if needed and can help react to spores/air sacs if your AA fails to hold out or you haven't got any redon.

[Strategic Sage]

It's just you. Cannons do somewhat less damage than mortars under optimal conditions, but not that much less and many situations mortars can't do the maximum damage which makes cannons better. As with everything it is situational; both cannons and mortars have their moments. Overall, I would say cannons though are more better than mortars.

[75Karsten]

> more better? :D

[75Karsten]

Originally posted by Man Who Stares at Goat:

I have played and finished the campaign in all games in the series and normally the mortars and cannons are fairly well balanced with both working fairly well in different situations but in CW4 the mortars feel vastly superior to cannons. Normally in prior games I found myself using mortars to clear deep pools and hold positions along walls with cannons used for support and pushing but in CW4 literally the only time I found myself using cannons was to clean up small pools that would get to close to mortars that they did not really target as they simply do not seem to pack the same punch. Is this just me or did anyone else feel the same way?

People make sweeping statements like this, but they omit to factor in playstyle and objectives. Some people like to terp the entire map to a flat parking lot. Others play for fast time scores, others play to get huge waves of (anti-)creeper swooping over the map.

Some factor in build cost and cost per shot, others don't. Some proclaim the efficiency of Mortars, others that of Cannons, still others say Sprayers are useless

Mortars are more expensive than cannons, mortars don't target shallow nearby creeper if they have range on deeper creeper. A mortar can die standing in a shallow pool of creeper.

If you can afford to pave the entire front line with mortars, go for it, but you can achieve the same with fewer units and less energy if you mix all the available weapons.

You can compare the statistics for the various units on the wiki here:
https://knucklecracker.com/wiki/doku.php?id=cw4:info:player_unit_data

[Strategic Sage]

Guilty as charged. More better. *slap self*. Learn to English :)

[Joseph Sneed]

Originally posted by 75Karsten:

Originally posted by Man Who Stares at Goat:

I have played and finished the campaign in all games in the series and normally the mortars and cannons are fairly well balanced with both working fairly well in different situations but in CW4 the mortars feel vastly superior to cannons. Normally in prior games I found myself using mortars to clear deep pools and hold positions along walls with cannons used for support and pushing but in CW4 literally the only time I found myself using cannons was to clean up small pools that would get to close to mortars that they did not really target as they simply do not seem to pack the same punch. Is this just me or did anyone else feel the same way?

People make sweeping statements like this, but they omit to factor in playstyle and objectives. Some people like to terp the entire map to a flat parking lot. Others play for fast time scores, others play to get huge waves of (anti-)creeper swooping over the map.

Some factor in build cost and cost per shot, others don't. Some proclaim the efficiency of Mortars, others that of Cannons, still others say Sprayers are useless

Mortars are more expensive than cannons, mortars don't target shallow nearby creeper if they have range on deeper creeper. A mortar can die standing in a shallow pool of creeper.

If you can afford to pave the entire front line with mortars, go for it, but you can achieve the same with fewer units and less energy if you mix all the available weapons.

You can compare the statistics for the various units on the wiki here:
https://knucklecracker.com/wiki/doku.php?id=cw4:info:player_unit_data

Maybe it is just me then but I find I can't really use cannons in 4 the same way I did in 3. In many missions in 3 I never ended up actually producing mortars or only ended up using them defensively. My standard approach in 3 was to set up mortars and sprayers set to always on along my defensive wall then drop 4 cannon on the other side and advance with them using a shield to cover if necessary. In 4 while I maintain the wall strategy I find myself using mortars to push with 1-2 cannons for mop up as I am just not feeling like they remove the same amount of creeper as before.

[cornucanis]

Originally posted by Man Who Stares at Goat:

Originally posted by 75Karsten:

People make sweeping statements like this, but they omit to factor in playstyle and objectives. Some people like to terp the entire map to a flat parking lot. Others play for fast time scores, others play to get huge waves of (anti-)creeper swooping over the map.

Some factor in build cost and cost per shot, others don't. Some proclaim the efficiency of Mortars, others that of Cannons, still others say Sprayers are useless

Mortars are more expensive than cannons, mortars don't target shallow nearby creeper if they have range on deeper creeper. A mortar can die standing in a shallow pool of creeper.

If you can afford to pave the entire front line with mortars, go for it, but you can achieve the same with fewer units and less energy if you mix all the available weapons.

You can compare the statistics for the various units on the wiki here:
https://knucklecracker.com/wiki/doku.php?id=cw4:info:player_unit_data

Maybe it is just me then but I find I can't really use cannons in 4 the same way I did in 3. In many missions in 3 I never ended up actually producing mortars or only ended up using them defensively. My standard approach in 3 was to set up mortars and sprayers set to always on along my defensive wall then drop 4 cannon on the other side and advance with them using a shield to cover if necessary. In 4 while I maintain the wall strategy I find myself using mortars to push with 1-2 cannons for mop up as I am just not feeling like they remove the same amount of creeper as before.

The damage is actually exactly the same for cannon in CW3 and CW4 (assuming the data on the wiki for both games is correct.) The difference you're noticing is likely a combination of the wave effect as well as the fact that the default creeper flow rate in CW4 has been increased. These two effects both make it more difficult to stop small amounts of creeper from pushing past your front lines if there is deep creeper behind the "small amount." This means that it's generally a good idea to throw in a mortar or two to control the deep creeper behind the front line. Though you could technically always just throw more cannons at it as well.

Ultimately, I'm pretty sure every campaign level can be beaten with no mortars built, and every campaign level except the first two (where you have no mortars) can be beaten with no cannons built. Both weapons can stand on their own if you build enough of them, but ideally you want a mix on most maps if you're aiming for efficiency.

[Joseph Sneed]

Originally posted by cornucanis:

Originally posted by Man Who Stares at Goat:

Maybe it is just me then but I find I can't really use cannons in 4 the same way I did in 3. In many missions in 3 I never ended up actually producing mortars or only ended up using them defensively. My standard approach in 3 was to set up mortars and sprayers set to always on along my defensive wall then drop 4 cannon on the other side and advance with them using a shield to cover if necessary. In 4 while I maintain the wall strategy I find myself using mortars to push with 1-2 cannons for mop up as I am just not feeling like they remove the same amount of creeper as before.

The damage is actually exactly the same for cannon in CW3 and CW4 (assuming the data on the wiki for both games is correct.) The difference you're noticing is likely a combination of the wave effect as well as the fact that the default creeper flow rate in CW4 has been increased. These two effects both make it more difficult to stop small amounts of creeper from pushing past your front lines if there is deep creeper behind the "small amount." This means that it's generally a good idea to throw in a mortar or two to control the deep creeper behind the front line. Though you could technically always just throw more cannons at it as well.

Ultimately, I'm pretty sure every campaign level can be beaten with no mortars built, and every campaign level except the first two (where you have no mortars) can be beaten with no cannons built. Both weapons can stand on their own if you build enough of them, but ideally you want a mix on most maps if you're aiming for efficiency.

This is entirely possible. The cannons might need a slight ROF buff to compensate.

[Strategic Sage]

Cannons already do 80% of Mortars max damage. They don't need a buff. It's always been the case since CW1 that cannons were better at shallow creeper and Mortars at deeper creeper. If anything, as I mentioned, it is cannons that are OP.

[Kalil]

I think it is incorrect to compare cannons to mortars - mortars are definitely better as offensive weapons, but the primary role of cannons is defensive. Unless you have enough mortar power to completely overwhelm the map, creep will 'sneak by' them, as they target the thickest rather than the nearest creep.

The actual comparison is to sprayers, which are probably the most potent defensive tool, late game. This leaves cannons with a strong niche of early game defense.

[Joseph Sneed]

Originally posted by Kalil:

I think it is incorrect to compare cannons to mortars - mortars are definitely better as offensive weapons, but the primary role of cannons is defensive. Unless you have enough mortar power to completely overwhelm the map, creep will 'sneak by' them, as they target the thickest rather than the nearest creep.

The actual comparison is to sprayers, which are probably the most potent defensive tool, late game. This leaves cannons with a strong niche of early game defense.

I agree this is the case in 4 but in 3 this was not how it was with cannons able to punch through an area quickly and being the better offensive option due to the long impact time of the mortars (I think the time between firing and impact in 4 might be shorter than 3) and more gelatinous nature of the creeper in 3. A cluster of 4 cannons was able to advance when supported by anti creeper with little issue where as I find myself using 4 mortars with a single cannon in 4 as cannons simply cannot hold the creeper back as well.

[Bobucles]

Both cannons and mortars are somewhat interchangeable. The important thing is having enough sheer firepower to push back the creeper. Each weapon has its ups and downs. Mortars obviously have range, work great against deep creeper and work well in rough terrain. Cannons start to fail on rough terrain, but they protect against the very fast bottom layer of creeper. Cannons are also pretty effective for massive turret drops and can aggressively push a bit quicker. Mortars tend to die before clearing their spot.

[pcdeltalink]

Originally posted by Man Who Stares at Goat:

I have played and finished the campaign in all games in the series and normally the mortars and cannons are fairly well balanced with both working fairly well in different situations but in CW4 the mortars feel vastly superior to cannons. Normally in prior games I found myself using mortars to clear deep pools and hold positions along walls with cannons used for support and pushing but in CW4 literally the only time I found myself using cannons was to clean up small pools that would get to close to mortars that they did not really target as they simply do not seem to pack the same punch. Is this just me or did anyone else feel the same way?

That seems to be their primary use, yes, is defending other units when little bits of creeper do manage to make it through. Mortars can die from essentially a pixel of creeper because they don’t target the stuff they are sitting on so they need cannons to defend them.

In a spot where cannons either have height advantage or just flat ground I’ve noticed little difference comparing the performance of cannon vs mortar in holding off the flood.

However, cannons are useful for offense as well. If I’m getting ready to attempt a push or landing into a creeper filled area you send cannons for that, not mortars. Your goal in those moments is to clear the area around your units as fast as possible to allow a relay or whatever to be built. Mortars cannot do this. Only cannons are able to do this effectively.

[RestlessBear]

I have to say, that it was the the easter egg level that got me to see the plus side of cannons. For most of the campaign I used usually a line of cannons. As I have played more and more levels, I have seen that in the beginning you usually need cannons to start with and barely hold the line, and then get a mortar to quickly save yourself as more creeper is building up to get a solid foot hold. As the developer has said, I have learned several different styles of play to see which ones work better on several maps. This game is a game of simple to complex and love it for that reason. I just wish there was some better internet/youtube tutorials on making your own units and maybe some better explainations of some of the unit options.