For the Dev: "We Know Nothing"

[Dear next of kin...]

Please, stop putting these types of missions in. The ones with annoying instant loss conditions like the laser walls that allow a massive wall of creep to swell up. There was one in Creeper World 3, completing it wasn't fun then, it's not fun now. The solution isn't clever, the level is just a chore. An exercise in figuring out the only build order that works and abusing the pause button to gain maximum efficiency. Succeeding isn't a victory, it just means you're no longer being punished and can go back to the fun parts of the game.

[Strategic Sage]

There are multiple ways to win We Know Nothing. It doesn't have an instant loss condition, you don't have to pause, and you don't need a precise build order. A decent one yes, but you can make quite a few mistakes. I'm confused about your comment on the laser walls - they help you by giving you time to prepare for the creeper, they don't hurt you on that mission.

[GeneralVeers]

Memory is a bit foggy (and my autosave of this level seems to be gone!) but I'm pretty sure I did an early rush to the AC Temple and the Totem in the center area. Once the Totem shield is up, defending the center is easy.

[Dear next of kin...]

You have to rush Totem and AC temple plus you have to claim bluite and put up refineries or the totems don't work. You can't skip either step. Since the objectives at the top and bottom start covered in creep already, you cannot carve through it in time to kill them off before the wave crashes the first laser wall. Can't forward base on the right side of the map to head off the initial flow, where forward basing is quite possible on most earlier levels.

Also, laser walls do not help you, they are the main issue with the level. Because there are laser walls, the devs upped the amount of creep that comes out, and they force it to flow to the left so hard that it rises up like a tidal wave even before it hits the laser wall. This makes turrets much less effective because they destroy small chunks at the bottom of the wave but since there's so much built up above their level that despite them carving out creep, the creep continues to move towards them, where in earlier levels destroying the edge of the creep pushed it back as well. None of the levels before it have the creep behaving like this.

It's not an impossible level, the solution is clear as day, it's just boring and tedious, just like the one from Creeper World 3.

[GeneralVeers]

Originally posted by Dear next of kin...:

This makes turrets much less effective because they destroy small chunks at the bottom of the wave but

Uhhhhh.........."turrets"???

From your description, it sounds like you mean Cannons. And it sounds like you were using ONLY cannons. Did you not have any Mortars built?? Because with tall stacks of creeper, you don't want Cannons. You want Mortars.

(well, you DO want a couple Cannons covering the Mortars, to protect them from leaks; Mortars go for the deepest creeper they can reach, so a tiny shallow puddle of creeper can leak onto a Mortar and kill it if you don't cover it with a Cannon)

[Omniconda]

you dont have to rush anything on that map. just get power going and build a few mortars behind your shield adding to it after you get the basics set up. then push forward once your settled.

[cornucanis]

Originally posted by Dear next of kin...:

You have to rush Totem and AC temple plus you have to claim bluite and put up refineries or the totems don't work. You can't skip either step. Since the objectives at the top and bottom start covered in creep already, you cannot carve through it in time to kill them off before the wave crashes the first laser wall.

Actually, the only one of those things that is required is harvesting the greenar, but that much is true on any totem map. Here's how I approached the map. [i.imgur.com] I did have to abuse pause for a brief moment to ferry the greenar to the island factory, but otherwise the strategy was quite easy to pull off.

[Boikinov]

No need for a rush
Just give up the totem and AC temple at the beginning, they won't be destroyed by creeper
You have enough time to fortify a cannon and mortar battery behind the left shield wall
Then slowly push forward and activate the AC temple while starting mining Bluite
Piece of cake

[Strategic Sage]

Here's an example of not needing to rush refineries or bluite etc. I haven't even built a refinery. I could improve the efficiency of the energy grid if I felt like it. I have more than enough energy to power more than enough mortars to ensure the creeper never reaches the second wall, and can push it back at my leisure. https://i.imgur.com/7TYlUuL.png

[Dear next of kin...]

Originally posted by Strategic Sage:

Here's an example of not needing to rush refineries or bluite etc. I haven't even built a refinery. I could improve the efficiency of the energy grid if I felt like it. I have more than enough energy to power more than enough mortars to ensure the creeper never reaches the second wall, and can push it back at my leisure. https://i.imgur.com/7TYlUuL.png

And can you do that starting from the middle without harvesting bluite at all? Or is there a way to start your base on the right side of the map and survive? Is there any possible way of winning the stage without devoting some attention to the far left side of the map? if not, my point still stands. Other stages you had choices. You could ignore the AC temples and never make bluite for them on the stage before. You could do maps without ever building mortars, or never building cannons. Not this one. This one limits your choices in ways the previous maps didn't.

Once again it's not impossible, it's just boring and tedious, and it's designed to force you to play a specific way. The devs have already shown they're creative enough that bottlenecking is not necessary, so why make levels like this?

[GeneralVeers]

Originally posted by Dear next of kin...:

Is there any possible way of winning the stage without devoting some attention to the far left side of the map?

Actually, yes! I tried the map again, and started in the CENTER instead of the left edge. Plunked the Rift Lab down right next to the AC Temple. Now, I did build Towers all over the left part of the map--needed the energy--but I was able to stabilize in the center. Took eight Mortars and eight Cannons to do it. Didn't even need the Factory.

Once I stabilized, I placed Towers to those tiny islands near the top and bottom metal-cube-generator-thingies, cleared the creeper off them with one Mortar each at the top and bottom, then used Nullifiers to explode the generators. Once those went kablooey, the production of creeper at the right map edge stopped. Game over.

So yes. It can be done. You simply didn't figure out how to do it.

[Strategic Sage]

Originally posted by Dear next of kin...:

Is there any possible way of winning the stage without devoting some attention to the far left side of the map? if not, my point still stands. Other stages you had choices.

This is a very strange standard. What other games have you played that allow you to do essentially whatever you want to this degree and still win? I've never seen a strategy game that did, and it would ensure there isn't any semblance of reasonable difficulty at all if there was one.

I would answer the 'why make a level like this' in this manner; because it's entirely natural and appropriate for the campaign to get more difficult and introduce new concepts as it proceeds. That's how games work, and there's a reason why it's been standard for almost as long as the RTS has been around.

[Handbanana]

Yea this map is fairly easy actually. I don't remember having any problem with it. You just build up to the wall and line canons and mortars and they hold it back.

[GeneralVeers]

Originally posted by Strategic Sage:

Originally posted by Dear next of kin...:

Is there any possible way of winning the stage without devoting some attention to the far left side of the map? if not, my point still stands. Other stages you had choices.

This is a very strange standard. What other games have you played that allow you to do essentially whatever you want to this degree and still win? I've never seen a strategy game that did, and it would ensure there isn't any semblance of reasonable difficulty at all if there was one.

Actually, in most RTS games, you don't even get to choose where you start.

[jakob_aland]

Originally posted by Dear next of kin...:

Originally posted by Strategic Sage:

Here's an example of not needing to rush refineries or bluite etc. I haven't even built a refinery. I could improve the efficiency of the energy grid if I felt like it. I have more than enough energy to power more than enough mortars to ensure the creeper never reaches the second wall, and can push it back at my leisure. https://i.imgur.com/7TYlUuL.png

And can you do that starting from the middle without harvesting bluite at all? Or is there a way to start your base on the right side of the map and survive? Is there any possible way of winning the stage without devoting some attention to the far left side of the map? if not, my point still stands. Other stages you had choices. You could ignore the AC temples and never make bluite for them on the stage before. You could do maps without ever building mortars, or never building cannons. Not this one. This one limits your choices in ways the previous maps didn't.

Once again it's not impossible, it's just boring and tedious, and it's designed to force you to play a specific way. The devs have already shown they're creative enough that bottlenecking is not necessary, so why make levels like this?

So basically you expect to not need to use the different assets the game gives you? Then what is the point? It would be a worse game if you could pass every level without using one asset.

[Dear next of kin...]

Originally posted by GeneralVeers:

Actually, yes! I tried the map again, and started in the CENTER instead of the left edge. Plunked the Rift Lab down right next to the AC Temple. Now, I did build Towers all over the left part of the map--needed the energy--but I was able to stabilize in the center. Took eight Mortars and eight Cannons to do it. Didn't even need the Factory.

Once I stabilized, I placed Towers to those tiny islands near the top and bottom metal-cube-generator-thingies, cleared the creeper off them with one Mortar each at the top and bottom, then used Nullifiers to explode the generators. Once those went kablooey, the production of creeper at the right map edge stopped. Game over.

So yes. It can be done. You simply didn't figure out how to do it.

"I won without doing that thing you said (except for that part, where I did do that thing) so hah!" is not really impressive. So you put your lab down in the center and immediately expanded to the west past the left laser wall, ie, proving that you must deal with the left side of the map. Thank you for proving me right.