Sprayer needs an upgrade?

[Regicide]

Hey,

so I've tested today to beat a map only with Anti Creeper vs. Creeper. It was an experimental self made map (all even) to get a feeling of how much AC prod you need to kick Creepers ass.

Final result was that Sprayers in CW 4, compared to CW 3, seems to be pretty weak. Same goes for the Mines.

With 15 Sprayers running on "Always on", 5! of them boosted with ERN's, I was still losing very slowly ground against 2 x 45 per 0.5 sec Creeper Emitters.

And to feed those 15 Sprayers so they are at 100% prod, I'm running 57! Miners on patches like those you get when you do a random mission in the mission generator. (6 Patches, each able to feed around 10 Miners if you want to use every single spot).

Like said, compared to CW 3, this is pretty weak. It's very okay as support when you work with Mortars and Cannons in combination, but it seems to be pretty impossible to beat a normal random generated map only with AC, like you were able in CW 3.

So, for me I think both Sprayers and Bluite Miners need an upgrade. But in combination with normal weapons they might be to OP then.

What do you guys think?

[Senlin]

My question would be - why? Why would sprayers need to be able to do that on their own?

In regular gameplay (in the campaign), they do feel rather week as a frontline weapon, but their great strength is that they:
1) allow you to accumulate resources, unlike anything else
2) provide defence cover for your base, against anything
3) they don't use energy and the resource they use is only used by them (and AC bombers, which are more or less the same deal).

All of that means that they do have a role to play.

[Cactus-Cat]

Anti creeper becomes a lot stronger when you get the mine upgrade and put all remaining Erns into your blulite miners.
The last campaign mission becomes very easy if you focus on AC production.

And I don't believe it's intended to beat the game only with AC.

[Mr W]

I think that if you play a combined arms style play they are plenty powerful as they are. Each of the turrets has a complimentary role to play in the fight. Cannons are to clear nearby creeper and push the front, mortars are to do the real damage to creeper from behind the front, and (at least the way I play) sprayers are to lock down areas you've claimed with a thick layer of AC and help protect areas in the front that you may be pushing with (the snipers and missiles have specific targets they are good at).

[Strategic Sage]

What I would suggest doing in the case you are talking about is using your ERNs on mining upgrade and on the miners themselves, not on the Sprayers. An ERNed Sprayer increases it's volume but not efficiency. More standard sprayers and ERNs to increase the amount of bluite you have coming in would give you an overall increase in amount of AC. I'll give it a shot myself and show what happened if you want to tell me what the settings were for your map so I can get the same one.

The value of AC against Crimson is also an important factor here - and you could argue they were OP in CW3. They aren't quite as effective as a front-line weapon as cannons are in CW4, but I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

This also may be useful; I'm sure you've done the campaign by now judging by your postings, but when I did the first mission Sprayers show up in, their AC was the dominant factor in the mission. https://youtu.be/92t3OXf4arA. Ultimately I think a lot of this comes down to how much bluite is on a map, and tweaking that.

[75Karsten]

One note. If you place the dispatching Sprayers directly on the breeder terrain, they also remove the creeper needed for breeding. :)

[Regicide]

I understand that they key to beat a map is to use all weapons in combination, but I like it to use different strategies to increase the replay value, thus in CW 3 I tried (and sucesfully did) simply beat some maps with AC only. It's harder and not possible on every map, but quite fun.

But it looks like that this is completly impossible in CW 4 if you don't alter the map via the editor and print additional bluite or add lots of ERN's.

@Strategic Sage: Just a plain even map, two Emitters 45 every 0.5 sec. To not instantly lose (due to even terrain, Creep will overrun you very fast) I placed the buildings I need via the Editor during gameplay (since it was for testing only)

@75Karsten this note is for who? Because I didn't used any breeder terrain

[PhailRaptor]

AC already had a decidedly defensive bent in CW3, and that is significantly stronger now in CW4. You don't use AC for pushing. You use it for blocking pushes. Over time it also becomes a last line of defense against Spores and Air Sacs.

Even then, it has some good utility purposes, offensively speaking. Crimson Creeper takes 80% less damage from weapons, but is still eliminated 1:1 by AC. When you need just a little more pressure to secure a toe-hold on the next bit of terrain, AC will buy you that time to land your Cannons and finish building your Pylon. The best way to overcome large concentrations of Breeder Terrain is to flood it with AC so there's no Creeper to Breed. AC Bombers can be extremely effective in opening a beachhead for you to land an invasion force in a remote part of the map -- backed up by 4 Porters worth of Arg to make a Micro Rift, you can set up a remote outpost basically anywhere because of it.

[Strategic Sage]

https://youtu.be/q03pd7JKo2o

Long and the short of it is I was able to defeat not just two, but the full default four emitters at 45 creeper per half-second using the same amount of miners and ERNs described. As another poster mentioned, ERNing Mining in the portal and Miners themselves is the way to go, not on the sprayers if you want to maximize your output and use it as a sole way to defeat the creeper.

[Regicide]

Originally posted by Strategic Sage:

https://youtu.be/q03pd7JKo2o

Long and the short of it is I was able to defeat not just two, but the full default four emitters at 45 creeper per half-second using the same amount of miners and ERNs described. As another poster mentioned, ERNing Mining in the portal and Miners themselves is the way to go, not on the sprayers if you want to maximize your output and use it as a sole way to defeat the creeper.

Allright, I will try this out too! ty

[Regicide]

Originally posted by Strategic Sage:

https://youtu.be/q03pd7JKo2o

Long and the short of it is I was able to defeat not just two, but the full default four emitters at 45 creeper per half-second using the same amount of miners and ERNs described. As another poster mentioned, ERNing Mining in the portal and Miners themselves is the way to go, not on the sprayers if you want to maximize your output and use it as a sole way to defeat the creeper.

Hey again, for some reasons I didn't realized that made an extra video for this (even though you linked and I quoted it, pls don't ask.) but I finally watched and want to thank you for all the effort you put into this! And you're absolutley right, ERN's in Sprayers are wasted, it's much more effective to use then in the Mines directly.

Thank and have a nice day!