Incredible difficulty spike

[iamnid]

Well, I did all the levels and their alternates and found a few secret bees. I'm trying the impossible lair with 42 bees. I can't get more than 42% through. Every time you die you have to start all over... that's about 5 minutes from where i keep dying. The difficulty spike at the end is insane. Even if I go back and find everything, that will only give me 4 more hits. I hope an update addresses this or I just won't ever finish this game.

[Jon]

Tonics? I don't remember them being usable in the lair. That said, it's supposed to be really challenging. It's not called "impossible" for nothing.

[SilentHill001]

I'm in the same boat and can verify that you can't use tonics in the final level. I've collected all bees, coins, and tonics and absolutely loved the game up to this point. I've made it 67% after 10 runs, and having to go through the stage (multiple levels and boss fights) from the very beginning is infuriating. One small mistake can cost you a bunch of bees in a few seconds and so much requires pinpoint accuracy. I'm hoping they either patch in checkpoints, add more bees, or give us the ability to use a tonic. I'm not great at platformers, but still wanted the satisfaction of beating it after putting so much time into it.

[Rowdy_Wolf™]

Originally posted by SilentHill001:

I'm in the same boat and can verify that you can't use tonics in the final level. I've collected all bees, coins, and tonics and absolutely loved the game up to this point. I've made it 67% after 10 runs, and having to go through the stage (multiple levels and boss fights) from the very beginning is infuriating. One small mistake can cost you a bunch of bees in a few seconds and so much requires pinpoint accuracy. I'm hoping they either patch in checkpoints, add more bees, or give us the ability to use a tonic. I'm not great at platformers, but still wanted the satisfaction of beating it after putting so much time into it.

You said all, I'm having the same issues as you and iamnid, I'm hoping at least for more accurate controls, or making the tonics useful in the impossible lair.

[Dearberry]

Read the hazard/enemy pattern and keep trying, It took me 11 tries to finish the impossible lair with 48 bees.

[Kyle784]

I personally believe a game like this with the name Impossible in the title should have an extremely hard ending requiring strong mastery of all the games mechanics. So to me making it easier by adding more bees, or enabling tonics that make it easier, checkmates, ect would undermine that. The only good solution I can think to this would be: To add a false ending at 50% or whatever where bad things happen to the world because you failed to stop Capital B. A second option being a mode that would double your bees on a run but it's impossible to get to the final boss and beat the game. This would allow people to practice the upcoming sections of the Impossible Lair more easily but still require a normal run for victory.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Kyle784:

I personally believe a game like this with the name Impossible in the title should have an extremely hard ending requiring strong mastery of all the games mechanics. So to me making it easier by adding more bees, or enabling tonics that make it easier, checkmates, ect would undermine that.

I agree with this. The lair is an imposing threat that's incredibly rewarding to beat because it pulls no punches. The bees are your only saving grace, so you're forced to make every one of them count by staying focused and learning the stage. I'd personally be disappointed if it were made any easier than maybe tweaking certain parts to be very slightly more forgiving.

[Rowdy_Wolf™]

Originally posted by Kyle784:

The only good solution I can think to this would be: To add a false ending at 50% or whatever where bad things happen to the world because you failed to stop Capital B. A second option being a mode that would double your bees on a run but it's impossible to get to the final boss and beat the game.

Well... I dont know if you've seen this before, but the game already have two different endings... The normal (the bad ending), were you play with the bees, and the hard, were you play beeless (the good ending), I've accompained the game community since pre launching game, and someone already done the hard one (hardest, insane, in fact), if you interested, have a look at this:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1883413720
Man, beeless this is really insane! (At least for me.) More info on the video description.

[Rowdy_Wolf™]

Originally posted by Jonochrome:

I'd personally be disappointed if it were made any easier than maybe tweaking certain parts to be very slightly more forgiving.

Yes, I agree with you, that some people that aleady completed the entire game will become disappointed with the devs if they make some changes, but what to do for the people not hardcore that wants at least complete the game, even for the bad ending? At least, the use of the tonics, or more accurate controls may be a good thing, I think.

[iamnid]

Yeah, I'd like a checkpoint system... even if it saves the number of bees I had when I reached said checkpoint. Right now, it's discouraging because it takes so long to get to where you previously made it. I'd also welcome tonic use on the final level.

[Jon]

I can understand the use of tonics, since they're collected resources you can use anywhere else.

Adding a checkpoint system doesn't make as much sense to me. The lair is a test of endurance, which is why there's a balloon that indicates where your best previous attempt ended. It'd really mess with the tension to be able to start back somewhere in the middle again and again.

[Mother Serpent]

I still didn't mess around with the Impossible Lair; I'm playing with my girlfriend and trying to find every coin and every tonic (exploring is fun!). So, I do not have a opinion on the difficulty of the Lair itself; I can't say if I think it's fair or not.

BUT, if the difficulty really spikes, that might be an issue. I'm confident I can beat it, but my girl will definetelly not enjoy it. And I'm fine with hardcore challenges and hard games. The thing is, this game has a lot of mechanics to include players that don't have the time and skill to hardcore gaming. You can use tonics, you have a lot of checkpoints, and if you die a lot in the same place you can even skip some sections. All this design choices indicated that the game is open to people with different skills. And that's just fine.
If the Impossible Lair itself alienate the player the game gives the oportunity to play the regular levels, I would say it's flawed.

I don't see anything wrong either with checkpoints saving the number of bees or the use of tonics. At least to get to the ending. There could be a extra prize for those who want to complete it without checkpoints and tonics, in the same way there's an extra prize for those who want to complete it without bees.

Most platformers deal with difficulty this way. Mario Odyssey doesn't block players from getting to its ending. But there are a lot of harder challenges in the post game (my girl gave up in the endgame, and I started to play alone, but neither of us were frustated since we reached the ending together).
I can say the same about other Mario and Rayman games, that save the hardest section to those who are willing, instead of blocking the ending for average players. Even more when the rest of the game is so forgiving with failure.

[PietStokman]

I beat it yesterday: 9 attempts, 45 bees lost. It's hard. That's a fact.

They could add a 'The Somewhat Easier Lair' option when selecting the level (meaning there's a checkpoint or 2, that you can use some tonics and that there are less enemies (or something like that)), but I think it should have some consequences... like a note attached to the level that it only got completed on "easy", or not unlocking the corresponding milestone or something.
That way everyone can at least beat the game.

[Jon]

I don't know. I feel like there comes a point where you just have to accept that not every game is intended to be beatable by everyone. People complained that the original Yooka-Laylee was too easy, people are complaining this game is too hard. The phrase "the key to failure is trying to please everyone" comes to mind.

[Mother Serpent]

Originally posted by PietStokman:

I beat it yesterday: 9 attempts, 45 bees lost. It's hard. That's a fact.

They could add a 'The Somewhat Easier Lair' option when selecting the level (meaning there's a checkpoint or 2, that you can use some tonics and that there are less enemies (or something like that)), but I think it should have some consequences... like a note attached to the level that it only got completed on "easy", or not unlocking the corresponding milestone or something.
That way everyone can at least beat the game.

That's also a valid idea. Celeste had the sticker glued to your save file if you ever used the help mode. Something similar could be done here, so that everyone could finish the game.

[Mother Serpent]

Originally posted by Jonochrome:

I don't know. I feel like there comes a point where you just have to accept that not every game is intended to be beatable by everyone. People complained that the original Yooka-Laylee was too easy, people are complaining this game is too hard. The phrase "the key to failure is trying to please everyone" comes to mind.

It's not a problem if the game is consistent about it. Sekiro does not need an easy mode, because it's meant to be hard from the beggining. I can understand the frustation with Impossible Lair because you can spend a lot of hours playing a game that tells you it's ok to fail (by putting a lot of checkpoints, giving you tonics and even letting you skip hard sections). But you won't be able to count with the same tools to finish it...
If it wanted to be a hardcore platformer, it could be. But it's not for the entire game, just the ending.