BT3 spell saves

[Stagnetti]

So I've played through BT1 and BT2. I found BT2 a bit harder but if I was ever getting hit by monster spells I'd level up a bit and would have 100% chance to resist. In BT3 it seems to be way different. Even after getting boosted to lvl 35 after clearing the chaos dungeon , I am still getting hit by breath attacks from easy monsters like deathlions. This is becoming problematic with large groups.

I searched online and couldn't find much except this page https://bardstale.fandom.com/wiki/Saving_Throws, but it doesn't seem to explain the difference between BT1/2/3. Also, I can't really seem to find any spells that help. Even with Anti-magic, I still get hit. Phase blur and Invi seem to only affect AC, and LUCK seems to be temporary AC and +hit. My bard's songs don't help (spell song worked great in BT2 and I could stack it) but in BT3 none of the songs seem to help saving throws. Note that I'm using game-specific songs, so I have access to Sanctuary Score. It says on the tooltip that it helps with saving throws but even when stacking it (which seems to be a weird remaster-only exploit that works for pretty much every song) it doesn't help me resist at all.

So really..any pointers? Other than the obvious....maybe BT3 was just designed to be balanced better than the other two, and I have to take down the casters or heal through it before I die.

[Marcycle]

I don't think the formula changed in BT3 vs. BT1 and BT2. I think the attributes of the Foes in BT3 are just really, really high.

The Spell Save value for a Death Lion is 31. As a comparison, the Spell Save values for most of the Foes in the highest level of the Destiny Stone in BT2 ranges from 10 to 20. Spell Save seems to affect both offense/defense...think of it like your Foe's LUCK stat.

There are a few ways to avoid getting hit by breath attacks/spells/ranged attacks (all of which operate on the Spell Save/LUCK mechanic)

- Increase your luck by leveling up (30 max)
- Equip Breathring (even Pets/Summons can equip these)
- Equip Luckshield
- Equip Elf Boots
- Bard's Lucklaran song (and to a slower extent, Sanctuary Score) (can be stacked up to a point...only need to play twice for a high level bard)
- Magician Anti-Magic spell (can be stacked to a point)
- Chronomancer's Luck Chant spell (can be stacked to a point)
- Increase your character's level (seriously overleveled players can overcome all sorts of crazy spell save numbers)

If you are starting with a brand new party in BT3 and you want to get a full set of Elf Boots and Breath Rings for 7 party members, be prepared for a lot of grinding in the early levels. I prefer lv. 4 of Unterbrae or the Underwater Palace in Aboria. After a certain point in the game (I think Lucencia?) Elf Boots and Breathrings just don't drop until you get to Malefia (where every item in the game drops...could be a Staff of the Gods, could be a dagger).

In some cases, no matter how much you increase your luck, you can't avoid getting hit by a breath attack/spell/ranged attack without an extremely overleveled party. For example, the Gremlin in Malefia has a Spell Save of 200. In those situations, Spell Song is the best way to deal with it (halves spell/ranged/breath attacks every time you play it).

Depending upon the Foe, my first two moves with my Bards/Mages might be Lucklaran, Anti-Magic, and Luck Chant. Or if the Foe has a seriously high Spell Save, then maybe just Spell Song and Restoration. Stacking Spell Song 4x is usually good enough for almost all Foes who have high Spell Save values.

[Ninth Hour]

Marcycle already gave an excellent explanation. I agree with all his points.

The only thing I would add is that in Malefia, Spellsong may mitigate the damage by Gremlins but the best solution is to simply equip everyone with Breathrings, which make you totally immune. By that point, you should have amassed enough for everyone (assuming that you did not deem them worthless and drop them earlier).

There isn't anything better to wear in the ring slot anyway. Most protective rings (except for the one specific for Monks) only give you -2 AC, which doesn't make much difference by the last 2 dungeons of BT3, given that most creatures can hit you even with an AC of -50. And the Ring of Accuracy (+3 to hit) isn't essential for your dedicated melee fighters.

Breathrings, in comparison, boost your survivability in Malefia by a huge amount, given that many creatures there have breath attacks. With the rings, they cannot touch you unless they move into melee range, giving you time to pick them off before this happens (and often, they won't even bother to advance closer- the AI back then wasn't very smart).

[Stagnetti]

Originally posted by Marcycle:

I don't think the formula changed in BT3 vs. BT1 and BT2. I think the attributes of the Foes in BT3 are just really, really high.

The Spell Save value for a Death Lion is 31. As a comparison, the Spell Save values for most of the Foes in the highest level of the Destiny Stone in BT2 ranges from 10 to 20. Spell Save seems to affect both offense/defense...think of it like your Foe's LUCK stat.

There are a few ways to avoid getting hit by breath attacks/spells/ranged attacks (all of which operate on the Spell Save/LUCK mechanic)

- Increase your luck by leveling up (30 max)
- Equip Breathring (even Pets/Summons can equip these)
- Equip Luckshield
- Equip Elf Boots
- Bard's Lucklaran song (and to a slower extent, Sanctuary Score) (can be stacked up to a point...only need to play twice for a high level bard)
- Magician Anti-Magic spell (can be stacked to a point)
- Chronomancer's Luck Chant spell (can be stacked to a point)
- Increase your character's level (seriously overleveled players can overcome all sorts of crazy spell save numbers)

If you are starting with a brand new party in BT3 and you want to get a full set of Elf Boots and Breath Rings for 7 party members, be prepared for a lot of grinding in the early levels. I prefer lv. 4 of Unterbrae or the Underwater Palace in Aboria. After a certain point in the game (I think Lucencia?) Elf Boots and Breathrings just don't drop until you get to Malefia (where every item in the game drops...could be a Staff of the Gods, could be a dagger).

In some cases, no matter how much you increase your luck, you can't avoid getting hit by a breath attack/spell/ranged attack without an extremely overleveled party. For example, the Gremlin in Malefia has a Spell Save of 200. In those situations, Spell Song is the best way to deal with it (halves spell/ranged/breath attacks every time you play it).

Depending upon the Foe, my first two moves with my Bards/Mages might be Lucklaran, Anti-Magic, and Luck Chant. Or if the Foe has a seriously high Spell Save, then maybe just Spell Song and Restoration. Stacking Spell Song 4x is usually good enough for almost all Foes who have high Spell Save values.

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

Marcycle already gave an excellent explanation. I agree with all his points.

The only thing I would add is that in Malefia, Spellsong may mitigate the damage by Gremlins but the best solution is to simply equip everyone with Breathrings, which make you totally immune. By that point, you should have amassed enough for everyone (assuming that you did not deem them worthless and drop them earlier).

There isn't anything better to wear in the ring slot anyway. Most protective rings (except for the one specific for Monks) only give you -2 AC, which doesn't make much difference by the last 2 dungeons of BT3, given that most creatures can hit you even with an AC of -50. And the Ring of Accuracy (+3 to hit) isn't essential for your dedicated melee fighters.

Breathrings, in comparison, boost your survivability in Malefia by a huge amount, given that many creatures there have breath attacks. With the rings, they cannot touch you unless they move into melee range, giving you time to pick them off before this happens (and often, they won't even bother to advance closer- the AI back then wasn't very smart).

Thanks to you both for the answers. Like I said I am playing with the legacy option "game specific songs", so I don't have Lucklaran or Spell Song, so Sanctuary Score is supposed to help with spells but it doesn't seem to really do anything. It's probably a combination of all the other stuff. Definitely on the lookout for breathrings then.