Question about classes.

[Deep Delver]

Does the Warrior have any advantages vs. the Paladin?

How useful are Hunters and Monks, compared to Warriors and Paladins?

Can the Thief backstab in BT1 if Legacy options are enabled? If yes, does the Thief need to be in the front row to do so? If running a six character party, will Slot 4 be treated as front or back row?

[kaypy]

The warrior gets access to some weapons and armour that the paladin doesn't. But not much, and the paladin get their own special equipment too. I've always preferred the paladin, so dont ask me to sing the praises of the warrior too much.

Hunters get a chance to instant kill with whatever weapon they are using. Most other classes can get an instant kill weapon if you find it, but for the hunter anything is instant kill. Including missile weapons- A hunter with an Aram's Knife is a "pick whichever of the enemies backline mages are most annoying and remove one every turn even if they are at 90'" option. And then theres Black Arrows...

Monks are much more useful with individual inventories. They were the party mules in the original. They max out their AC just by leveling up, so they dont take up all those armour slots. Their barehand melee attack gets pretty decent quickly, but they dont get instakill without very rare weapons. One other often overlooked use for a monk is that they can use Staffs of Lor to become the party healer, freeing up a mage for offensive duty. (Other classes can use Purple Hearts muuuch later)

I just fired up a legacy mode game and sent out a party of 6 rogues, so- yes you can critical from shadows in legacy mode bt1. You can attack from the shadows from your backline, at their backline, no problems.

The last 3 slots are backline, so 4,5,6 in legacy bt1

[Deep Delver]

Originally posted by kaypy:

The warrior gets access to some weapons and armour that the paladin doesn't. But not much, and the paladin get their own special equipment too. I've always preferred the paladin, so dont ask me to sing the praises of the warrior too much.

Hunters get a chance to instant kill with whatever weapon they are using. Most other classes can get an instant kill weapon if you find it, but for the hunter anything is instant kill. Including missile weapons- A hunter with an Aram's Knife is a "pick whichever of the enemies backline mages are most annoying and remove one every turn even if they are at 90'" option. And then theres Black Arrows...

Monks are much more useful with individual inventories. They were the party mules in the original. They max out their AC just by leveling up, so they dont take up all those armour slots. Their barehand melee attack gets pretty decent quickly, but they dont get instakill without very rare weapons. One other often overlooked use for a monk is that they can use Staffs of Lor to become the party healer, freeing up a mage for offensive duty. (Other classes can use Purple Hearts muuuch later)

I just fired up a legacy mode game and sent out a party of 6 rogues, so- yes you can critical from shadows in legacy mode bt1. You can attack from the shadows from your backline, at their backline, no problems.

The last 3 slots are backline, so 4,5,6 in legacy bt1

thanks

[Tick Tock (Tim)]

Originally posted by Deep Delver:

Does the Warrior have any advantages vs. the Paladin?

How useful are Hunters and Monks, compared to Warriors and Paladins?

Can the Thief backstab in BT1 if Legacy options are enabled? If yes, does the Thief need to be in the front row to do so? If running a six character party, will Slot 4 be treated as front or back row?

The paladin also has magic resistance. This enables them at high levels to withstand all sorts of attacks. They overall make the best front rank characters, in my opinion.
Monks are also pretty good, as they gain astronomical AC and damage at high levels, but the lack of magic resistance causes you to have to keep healing them more.
It is also useful to have a bard in the party, especially if they are equipped with the Bard Sword, as it enables them to have unlimited songs, without the need to drink wine. This ability enables you to linger in the dungeons for a much longer period of time, as the bard songs can heal you, make light without the cost of magic power and do other useful things.

The hunters ability to kill things is okay but they lack the defensive capabilities of the paladins, warriors and monks, so I don't usually use them.

[Ninth Hour]

When I first played the trilogy, as a teenager in the late 1980's, I never used Hunters. But now that I'm revisiting the games as a middle-aged adult, I've found them to be the most lethal fighters. They start off mediocre but by level 10 or 11, have decent critical hit rates (especially if you save scum for optimal results). My level 36 Hunter in BT1 now has a crit stat of 327, which is a guaranteed kill every round.

With the ability to automatically kill targets at range, with arrows or thrown weapons, they offer more utility than other melee characters. In BT1, you don't really need them but they become much more useful in BT2 or BT3 when monster HP becomes sky high and even the considerable melee damage you can pump out from Warriors and Monks may not be able to one-shot all foes.

That being said, all melee characters eventually get overshadowed by spellcasters but if we're comparing Hunters to other fighters, there is a strong case to be made for them.

[Tick Tock (Tim)]

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

When I first played the trilogy, as a teenager in the late 1980's, I never used Hunters. But now that I'm revisiting the games as a middle-aged adult, I've found them to be the most lethal fighters. They start off mediocre but by level 10 or 11, have decent critical hit rates (especially if you save scum for optimal results). My level 36 Hunter in BT1 now has a crit stat of 327, which is a guaranteed kill every round.

With the ability to automatically kill targets at range, with arrows or thrown weapons, they offer more utility than other melee characters. In BT1, you don't really need them but they become much more useful in BT2 or BT3 when monster HP becomes sky high and even the considerable melee damage you can pump out from Warriors and Monks may not be able to one-shot all foes.

That being said, all melee characters eventually get overshadowed by spellcasters but if we're comparing Hunters to other fighters, there is a strong case to made for them.

It all just depends upon how you are building your party. I have read lots of opinions by experienced players who really like having a hunter in the party, as you say, they can instakill even powerful bosses, including Mangar, I believe.

The way I build my party, I have three "tanks" as front rank characters, but you could certainly have a hunter either in the front or the rear rank.
I'm probably not the greatest player, but I have gotten pretty far. I've never beaten Mangar, though, or even gotten into his tower, but I have gotten pretty close. More to the fact that the game is like one big maze than monster difficulty.

My party has 3 paladin tanks, 1 bard and 3 spell casters.

A note on spell casters, the old game had a much higher xp requirement for sorcs and arch mages to level up. I think the newer version has the same xp table for all of the mage classes, so it doesn't matter which one is your last class.

Previously, you wanted one of the two basic classes to end up as your caster's final class, as it had the lower xp cost to level up. Now it doesn't matter, as long as you're playing the newer version of the game.

[Ninth Hour]

Originally posted by Tick Tock (Tim):

It all just depends upon how you are building your party. I have read lots of opinions by experienced players who really like having a hunter in the party, as you say, they can instakill even powerful bosses, including Mangar, I believe.

Yes, in fact, that's how I defeated Mangar. My Hunter, who was level 39 and had 330+ crit killed him in round 1 with an arrow. Quite a pushover (I actually found his Demon Lord companions more dangerous, as they typically acted first and would petrify one or two front rank characters before they could do anything. In other words, they acted like Hunters themselves).

Paladins, Monks, and Warriors just don't match up to the killing power of the Hunter. If their multiple attacks could actually hit more than one enemy (a mechanic which was later implemented in the first Wasteland game), they might be competitive, but because all melee units can only ever target one foe, it's clear that a person who can autokill 100% of the time will come out ahead of someone who simply does a ton of damage (there are some huge damage sponges in BT2 and BT3, from what i hear, so high damage is no longer a guaranteed kill).

At that point, Strength and weapon damage are moot. With a hunter, you can deal 1 damage and still instagib whatever you're facing.

Certain items can give that same capability to any fighter but, unlike the Hunter, they will never be able to do so at range. Give Hunters Ag's arrows (which drop reliably in Mangar's tower) and they can target any enemy up to 90' feet away. And in BT2 and BT3, there are long ranged thrown weapons that don't require ammo.

If you have a front line of 4 Hunters with crit ratings of 200+ and said weapons, you are guaranteed to kill 4 enemies every round, no matter the range. You just need initiative. Picking off those 1 to 4 mages or dragons at 60+ feet becomes simple and no longer requires your mages to waste time and SP flinging high-cost spells at a few stragglers.

No other fighter can support your spellcasters this way.

That being said, no one has to power game this way. It feels more interesting to have a varied party. But for this run, I am trying this composition out to see if it is really as good as I predict it will be.

[Slooge]

Originally posted by Tick Tock (Tim):

Originally posted by Ninth Hour:

...

Previously, you wanted one of the two basic classes to end up as your caster's final class, as it had the lower xp cost to level up. Now it doesn't matter, as long as you're playing the newer version of the game.

Depends on if you're using legacy XP options or not on the final caster class. Only matters for BT1 though, since you'll end on Archmage in 2/3 regardless.

As for paladins, the magic resistance bonus they have protects the entire group, if they are in the first slot. At least, that is how it was in the originals, no idea if the remake copied that in or not.

[680x0]

"As for paladins, the magic resistance bonus they have protects the entire group, if they are in the first slot. At least, that is how it was in the originals, no idea if the remake copied that in or not." - this is true in the remaster as well. that being said..

the first four slots can melee all the time. the fifth slot can melee only if you have a rogue there and only if you hide successfully in the first round of combat. this is regardless whether or not you are running a six character party.. furthermore, after slot five (rogue) attacks in melee, whether successful or not, he must hide again in the following combat round in order to attack from melee range again in the NEXT round.. although, if you keep hiding successfully, you will eventually have the ability to attack in melee range at ninety feet (90'). this applies to tales of the unknown, destiny knight and thief of fate in the remaster only. in legacy mode it 'should' only apply to destiny knight and thief of fate. it's also noteworthy that when a rogue is 'hiding', he in effect ends up in 'slot one' of the party, which has other implications. i.e. acting as a 'shield', affecting saving throws against magic attacks, etc.

as far as the paladin, warrior, monk differences and the hunter, (more comparable to a rogue), it comes down to armor class, initiative, number of attacks, weapons and armor use abilities and resistance to magic attacks (saving throws). paladins have the best saving throws against magic of the three. warriors can use more weapons and armor than any other class (think critical hits) and monks deal obscene amounts of damage and are almost always granted the initiative in combat at higher levels. given a high enough level, all of these things become a bit less worrisome but they DO matter nonetheless. hunters are an excellent slot four occupant as they can critical hit all the time and most often take on less damage in said slot.. not to mention use of missile weapons if you should choose to do so from behind cover.

in my experience, use a paladin or a warrior but not both, then add a monk. bard, hunter rogue in slot five, and two magic users. in legacy mode, you can only employ six slots (tales of the unknown) so same would apply, but choose hunter or rogue but not both. ALWAYS have two magic users in any party, legacy or not. destiny knight and thief of fate, even in legacy mode, should allow for employment of seven slots but keep in mind that at times, you will need to leave one or two or more characters behind for certain quests.

an example of how this setup works in real time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NkjBWXDh-I

[680x0]

Originally posted by Deep Delver:

Does the Warrior have any advantages vs. the Paladin?

How useful are Hunters and Monks, compared to Warriors and Paladins?

Can the Thief backstab in BT1 if Legacy options are enabled? If yes, does the Thief need to be in the front row to do so? If running a six character party, will Slot 4 be treated as front or back row?

just for the hell of it.. another example of the paladin/monk_paladin/warrior, bard, hunter, rogue, and double mages. to the newcomer, the advantages here may seem subordinate
but as you can see, it it both effective and efficient.

https://youtu.be/20UwwFs860o?si=791_Rotf7E0m_iro

[Montiness]

hunter, monk, bard, rogue, mag, con. All you need. The hunter by the time you're later in the game, and especialyl after transferring to bt2 will one hit everything where the warrior will not. The monk's just ridiculous. Thief with a death dagger? Yes please for another 1 hit anything without having to hide for a round, bard for infinite buff songs with a bardsword or an extra group attack with a horn and the mag and con are self explanatory.

If you grab a hex editor and know where to look after you get your 7 levels in mag con sor wiz you can make them an archmage as well, just wipe your exp in there as well to make it a bit more fun and whenever you want max your characters HP/SP to save the save scumming for max level up training.

Don't auto get the level 1 AM spells? No prob just spell acquire at the review board for free. Haven't played around with putting a geomancer in there, but don't really want one until 3 anyway.