Bard or Extra Spellcaster?

[Crom Bombadil]

Are Bards worth keeping in the party? I'm only level 6 but my bard kinda doesn't do much. The songs are nice, but there is practically no benefit beyond that.

It seems like a 3rd spellcaster would be more versitile and effective all-around.

[Hurker]

Although you might (I'm not sure) not need a Bard to finish the game, you need one to solve some puzzles.

As of the Catacombs the Bard gets more interesting in combat, since it can use Fire Horn, Frost Horn and Flame horn, which can be really helpful in killing larger amounts of creatures.

The songs are helpful (BADH'R KILNFEST in lower levels to regenerate HP, and I like THE TRAVELLER'S TUNE and LUCKLARAN further on in the game).

And a Bard can be used for close-combat if a summoned creature in your party is killed.

>It seems like a 3rd spellcaster would be more versitile and effective all-around.
I also considered this, since the mages have tons of more handy stuff than a Bard, but they are not suitable for close-combat (see previous note).

[josephdw106]

it really depends on how you filled out your first four. if you already have 4 melee characters ya he would be somewhat dead weight til you start finding his horns then he would start to take off. his armor class reducing song is very handy though and you can combine that with the spell casting armor reducers. this in a way almost makes him auto include as im sure many battles are made easier with stacking armor reducers. as far as late game im not sure how effecient a bard can get i have never been very far into this game myself but he for sure is a great asset to me right now.

[Mieumieu]

The Bard's horns end up casting some of the most damaging powerful AoE attacks in the entire game for free (items that have uses but you find plenty of them).

Not only that but the Bard is the only way you get background music in this game, it's sort of quiet without one.

A 3rd spellcaster is basically overkill and not needed in this first game.

The Bard's songs really help a great deal when the fights get harder in the final dungeon. You'll actually start fighting stuff that is difficult to hit and playing Seeker's Ballad lets you hit them easily. You also do way more damage using the first song - and also as mentioned those horns you'll be finding will be doing crazy damage as well and only the bard can play them.

[Slooge]

at the end game, the bard can use critical hit weapons as well, which puts them on par with the other tanks and it will transfer into the next game when it releases.

[Arabin]

If you don't have a bard, who's tale are you telling as you play?

Seriously though, the songs are invaluable and they become pretty competent melee fighters too. Not only can you play a song while exploring (usually to boost AC) but the songs stack in combat and you'll be very glad to have them later in the game.

Once you start exploring the dungeons, you'll eventually find a Bard Sword that when equipped, will give you unlimited songs, so you won't even need to stop for an ale or glass of wine.

In summary, keep your bard close.

[Astral Projection]

Bard on front line AND 3rd caster. Why?

- early game: Bard kills groups with FireHorn before casters get any area spells, Bard is the best character in early game by far

- late game: Bard has better FireHorn so he can kill groups and save your caster's Mana

Bard has as many HP as any frontline tank + armor song + resistance song. I'd drop any melee for a Bard.

[kendric]

Bard songs currently stack. I am not sure if this is a bug or not, but for example you can sing Travellers tune in battle and get your party ac into the -30 range if the battle lasts a few rounds.

[RedRover72]

The bard's songs stacked in the original game, at least on C64/128 and Amiga. Many of the songs appear to stack in the remaster, too.

For this remaster, since we can fill out all 7 slots, and don't need to fill the "S" slot with a summon, it makes a lot of sense to keep the bard in the front 4. The best character to ditch is the thief... put a third caster in instead of a thief and your party will be hard to stop.

As others have said, the fire/frost/flame horns are super powerful against a single group, and you start with a fire horn for free. If you make your own characters, be sure to transfer the free horn from the premade bard.

Also, as in the original game, you can 'recharge' your items by selling them to Garth and then buying them back. You have to pay double, but if you aren't finding the items fast enough, this is a fairly cheap way to kill off an entire group every encounter.

[noblesse_oblige]

Honestly, I've been considering a party with two bards on a replay of the remasters. I know that only one bard song can be active at a time during exploration, but you can stack them twice as fast in combat and cast Lucklaran and Traveller's Tune in the same round. And, unlike in the originals, Lucklaran (anti-magic) is actually effective in the remasters and Traveller's Tune (AC improvement) scales more powerfully. Likewise, a couple rounds of Falkentyne's Fury in Mangar's Tower, can leave you with a bard who is dishing out an extra +40 to +50 damage per swing of the Bardsword. Now, imagine doing all those buffs in half the time and also having the option of using two horns rather than one. Furthermore, a Luck 18 Bard with a Luckshield and a skill level in the mid 20's to early 30's doesn't have much to fear in the way of enemy magic or breath weapons in most of Mangar's Tower and, with proper armor, doesn't have to worry much about being hit as long as Traveller's Tune is playing during exploration (and hence combat onset).

[flux_c]

Originally posted by noblesse_oblige:

Honestly, I've been considering a party with two bards on a replay of the remasters.

If you mean a party of just two bards, as far as I can tell, this isn't possible. You can't complete the game having only a single class in your party. This, of course, means you can't solo the entire game either. In this case, you will be unable to go up portals, since bards can't cast one of the Levitate spells or use either of the items that could do the same. You're also going to have problems obtaining items, as you can't really deal with trapped chests.

Pretty sure the smallest parties are either:
- 1 caster and either a Paladin, Warrior, Hunter, or Bard or
- 1 Bard and either a Rogue or Monk

I have completed the game with no casters, but a party of Paladin, Monk, Rogue, and three Bards. Throwing out three bard songs in the first round is pretty awesome. Plus three of the damage horns destroys enemies.

[noblesse_oblige]

Originally posted by flux_c:

Originally posted by noblesse_oblige:

Honestly, I've been considering a party with two bards on a replay of the remasters.

If you mean a party of just two bards, as far as I can tell, this isn't possible.

No, I did not mean that and I don't know where you would get such a belief. The use of the word "with" rather than "of" should have been a good indicator of what I was talking about.

Originally posted by flux_c:

You can't complete the game having only a single class in your party. This, of course, means you can't solo the entire game either. In this case, you will be unable to go up portals, since bards can't cast one of the Levitate spells or use either of the items that could do the same. You're also going to have problems obtaining items, as you can't really deal with trapped chests.

Not sure who you are trying to lecture about this game....

[Morgian]

I went with Paladin, Hunter, Rogue and Bard, plus three casters, since that group can go from 1-3 without changes. The bard is nice, especially at lower levels, but he can use some of the good weapons (like the spectre snare) later. The songs are OK and give an edge when you go into places above your level.

You can go all monks and casters, too, except that you need someone to change class in part 2 (pally or warrior iirc), and a rogue in part 3.

[steve2727]

You definitely want 3 casters, if you put in a bard at all, they should be in the front 4, since they can wear decent armor and have good hitpoints.

You really don't need one for BT1 though, I ran with a Paladin, Hunter, Warrior, Rogue and 3 casters.

By halfway the first tower I'd sacked my whole front line and replaced them with summoned monsters. 3 Archmages finished the rest of the game easily.

[brialav]

Why not 3 spellcasters and a bard? I also have 2 monks and a summon dragon.

[PirateEmcee]

Originally posted by flux_c:

Originally posted by noblesse_oblige:

Honestly, I've been considering a party with two bards on a replay of the remasters.

If you mean a party of just two bards, as far as I can tell, this isn't possible. You can't complete the game having only a single class in your party. This, of course, means you can't solo the entire game either. In this case, you will be unable to go up portals, since bards can't cast one of the Levitate spells or use either of the items that could do the same. You're also going to have problems obtaining items, as you can't really deal with trapped chests.

Pretty sure the smallest parties are either:
- 1 caster and either a Paladin, Warrior, Hunter, or Bard or
- 1 Bard and either a Rogue or Monk

I have completed the game with no casters, but a party of Paladin, Monk, Rogue, and three Bards. Throwing out three bard songs in the first round is pretty awesome. Plus three of the damage horns destroys enemies.

Techncally, the smallest party would be one caster, but you'd probably need to have them run with a larger group for a bit while they gained the XP necessary to master multiple Caster classes. Though, a single caster could just spend a helluva lot of time grinding in Skara Brae, I suppose.

It'd be dicey to start, as a 1st level caster alone is basically asking to be eaten, but you could try starting with a Conjurer, and fill your party with Wolves, and then (I think, as I'm not looking at anything) Ogres and so on as the Conjurer levels. The troublesome part would be getting to the point where they'd be able to cast INWO, alone. But the tradeoff is that, when you do succeed in combat, you're getting six or seven times the XP.

But, eventually, you'd have an Archmage with a coterie of demons, chewing the faces off of everything. You'd be missing the Bard Songs, but one Archmage can do everything you absolutely need -- light, levitation, healing, sensory spells, etc., dealing damage, creating the rest of the party -- including bypass that one puzzle that gives this game its name. And all your friends are clones and easily replaced when they fall in battle.

Of course, this is only possible in Remastered BTI because it removes the Special slot and allows for multiple summons/wandering monsters.