Does puzzle S2-6 "Other side" break logical consistency? [spoiler, duh]

[KvaGram]

It was made clear early on that you cannot pull a driller though its own hole. That being a vital shortcut-killer for a lot of puzzles.
Yet the solution I found for s2-6 was to pull a digger though its own hole using a gravshifter.
From the look of it, it was the intended solution. What do you think? Is it inconsistent, or is it just the case that you cannot grab a driller BY HAND though its own hole?

[Liam Pope]

There was another discussion on this earlier.

My opinion - not logical inconsistency. It follows the simple fundamental rule that if you pick up a tool in hand it deactivates, but if you cause it to be moved (falling, fan, drone, etc) it will not deactivate. Just like a jammer can pass through the gate it is jamming by other means, but you cant pick it up and walk it through.

[playful_tux]

This being "just a game", you can always make up rules.

Whether it follows some actual rule or not, I do find this behaviour jarring, and hate this puzzle for this exact reason. In other words, I'm with you on this one @KvaGram.

[Chika Ogiue]

Originally posted by Liam Pope:

There was another discussion on this earlier.

My opinion - not logical inconsistency. It follows the simple fundamental rule that if you pick up a tool in hand it deactivates, but if you cause it to be moved (falling, fan, drone, etc) it will not deactivate. Just like a jammer can pass through the gate it is jamming by other means, but you cant pick it up and walk it through.

This is one of those things that irks me about this game, and I think better wording on tooltips/error messages as well as using the gimmick more than once each could have reinforced these rules better.

[Chika Ogiue]

Originally posted by joridiculous:

you should already have learned that in previous puzzles where you put a connector on top of a box that are lifted above force field or another where it bounces between two fans.

Well no, because none of that involves taking an object through it's own hole or walking through a blocked barrier -- both of which appear only once each in the game.

[Liam Pope]

But you don't take the driller through it's own hole. I think the game does a good job of showing that if tools are moved by any other means than the player taking them, they stay activated and continue doing their thing. Only if the player tries to take tools themselves then the tools deactivate.

[Chika Ogiue]

Originally posted by Liam Pope:

But you don't take the driller through it's own hole. I think the game does a good job of showing that if tools are moved by any other means than the player taking them, they stay activated and continue doing their thing. Only if the player tries to take tools themselves then the tools deactivate.

But you do in terms of player internalised rules. There is no other driller to make that hole and as such it moves through it's own hole. The problem, as I said, is the definition of "take". Many players internalise that as "move". This would have been easily negated with a few more puzzles using that same necessity -- all other instances of moving a driller through a hole has you specifically using a second driller to do so (thus further reinforcing the internalised notion that a driller cannot be taken (read as "moved") through its own hole.

Another way to resolve this issue would be an addition to the Lost Labs specifically pointing out how a device behaves when interacting with another, while also showing how the device fails to act when carried.

I'll restate here to be absolutely clear, the problem isn't the puzzles themselves or the logic, it's how that logic is (not) introduced or seemingly contradicted by what the player has been directly taught through the repetition of other puzzles.

[Liam Pope]

Originally posted by Chika Ogiue:

Originally posted by Liam Pope:

But you don't take the driller through it's own hole. I think the game does a good job of showing that if tools are moved by any other means than the player taking them, they stay activated and continue doing their thing. Only if the player tries to take tools themselves then the tools deactivate.

But you do in terms of player internalised rules. There is no other driller to make that hole and as such it moves through it's own hole. The problem, as I said, is the definition of "take". Many players internalise that as "move". This would have been easily negated with a few more puzzles using that same necessity -- all other instances of moving a driller through a hole has you specifically using a second driller to do so (thus further reinforcing the internalised notion that a driller cannot be taken (read as "moved") through its own hole.

Another way to resolve this issue would be an addition to the Lost Labs specifically pointing out how a device behaves when interacting with another, while also showing how the device fails to act when carried.

I'll restate here to be absolutely clear, the problem isn't the puzzles themselves or the logic, it's how that logic is (not) introduced or seemingly contradicted by what the player has been directly taught through the repetition of other puzzles.

To me 'take' means to be physically 'taken in hand' by a first or third person. I'd never use take for causing something to be moved by some external means. That'd be move, transport, convey. But maybe just me.

Like if the prompt had said 'a driller cannot move through its own hole', people would have a point.

As for the lost labs demonstrating if a tool is taken it shuts down - come on!! :) That's Talos 101. The first time you ever move an activated connector you know tools shut down when you pick them up.

[Chika Ogiue]

Originally posted by Liam Pope:

To me 'take' means to be physically 'taken in hand' by a first or third person. I'd never use take for causing something to be moved by some external means. That'd be move, transport, convey. But maybe just me.

And to others, it simply means to move from one place to another with no specific focus on the manner of its movement.

Originally posted by Liam Pope:

As for the lost labs demonstrating if a tool is taken it shuts down - come on!! :) That's Talos 101. The first time you ever move an activated connector you know tools shut down when you pick them up.

Clearly people don't, as this player assumed contradiction keeps coming up. So it appears to me players need to be shown that tools can violate assumed rules when interacting with another tool. Showing the standard contrasting action of when a player carries it, covers all bases and eliminates any point of confusion.

If you look around the net, there are three puzzles that trip players up the most; all three seemingly violate the player internalised rules (e.,g., moving through their own related gimmick) and none of those specific steps are repeated in any other puzzle. It's a weird oversight to me when we have two similar puzzles in a certain area which really didn't need the repetition (that is Rainbow and the preceding easier version).

[KvaGram]

Originally posted by playful_tux:

This being "just a game", you can always make up rules.

Whether it follows some actual rule or not, I do find this behaviour jarring, and hate this puzzle for this exact reason. In other words, I'm with you on this one @KvaGram.

Thank you @play_tux. However, when it comes to the "just a game" argument, please don't. This is not one of the game that plays fast and loose with its own internal logic, like many games do. This game strive for consistency, in fact it relies on it. That is why discussions like this is important.

However, based on this argument

Originally posted by Liam Pope:

There was another discussion on this earlier.

My opinion - not logical inconsistency. It follows the simple fundamental rule that if you pick up a tool in hand it deactivates, but if you cause it to be moved (falling, fan, drone, etc) it will not deactivate. Just like a jammer can pass through the gate it is jamming by other means, but you cant pick it up and walk it through.

I concede there are some precedence to this. But I still can't say I like it.

Also. I had no expectation this thread would beyond maybe five posts at most. And with this, it's now at nine. Wow.

[playful_tux]

Originally posted by KvaGram:

Originally posted by playful_tux:

This being "just a game", you can always make up rules.

Whether it follows some actual rule or not, I do find this behaviour jarring, and hate this puzzle for this exact reason. In other words, I'm with you on this one @KvaGram.

Thank you @play_tux. However, when it comes to the "just a game" argument, please don't. This is not one of the game that plays fast and loose with its own internal logic, like many games do. This game strive for consistency, in fact it relies on it. That is why discussions like this is important.

I didn't mean that the game could or did break its own logic, instead I meant that the game gets to define its own logic.

Defining you own logic doesn't mean you're inconsistent. It means that you define rules, and then deal with their consequences.

In some cases, the rules come from a domain anchored in reality. In the case of a game, not really: the game designers get to define rules such as "a tool can do this but not that, except under condition X" etc.

I am not faulting Talos game designers for being inconsistent with their own rules, but I think it's fair to call out a rule that you dislike. It can be applied consistently, and yet result in un-fun moments for some of us. It could be a consequence of the rule itself, or of how it is used in a particular puzzle.

As was mentioned elsewhere, the notion that a tool can stay active while being moved in some circumstances was required elsewhere (at least one puzzle in N1 requires crossing a barrier while holding a jammer on a platform that keeps the barrier jammed; I think TTP1 had one such puzzle too). It's one of those behaviours that is (AFAIK) not showcased in an easier puzzle, you have to find out about it through trial and errors, which can take a while and be frustrating. In my case, the "eureka" moment didn't eclipse the frustration here, and even less in "Other side". Some people disagree, and that's fine.

So you see, I think logic is very important in a game like this, it brings consistency, and thus you can recognize patterns that help you solve parts of the puzzles. But a particular logic is based on made-up rules, rules designed to make a particular game, and those rules can be certainly challenged IMHO.

[exe]

I agree when any tool is taken in your hand, it deactivates immediately. And when any tool is moved by other means/other tools it is still doing its thing. This the game's rule, I find this logical. Thanks to Liam Pope and playful_tux.

[KvaGram]

This entire discussion feels on par with the forum discussions in-game. Wait.. which one of us is 1k here? Are all of us 1k?

[darkgreenblue]

Indeed this feels like the in-game forum arguments! My view agrees that a driller being pushed/pulled through its own hole by a gravity beam (or a fan) is abiding by the machines' logic, because it remains active while those forces move it. The main precedent seems to be Gehenna world 4 "Air Delivery", where a jammer spins its head around as a fan sends it flying (atop a cube) over the barrier it's jamming. "Over" is equal to "through". That puzzle also inspires a variant idea in North 1 "Passing Through".

The understandable confusion is the "cannot be taken through" alert, which obviously lures many players away from this tricky driller solution.

[joridiculous]

Originally posted by darkgreenblue:

Indeed this feels like the in-game forum arguments! My view agrees that a driller being pushed/pulled through its own hole by a gravity beam (or a fan) is abiding by the machines' logic, because it remains active while those forces move it. The main precedent seems to be Gehenna world 4 "Air Delivery", where a jammer spins its head around as a fan sends it flying (atop a cube) over the barrier it's jamming. "Over" is equal to "through". That puzzle also inspires a variant idea in North 1 "Passing Through".

The understandable confusion is the "cannot be taken through" alert, which obviously lures many players away from this tricky driller solution.

It follow the logic perfectly. You cant take something through but you can transport it through. The game teach you this in the first puzzle of the game (after the intro) where you have to lift a connector over the force field.
If you Take the connector and stand on the cube to be lifted, nothing works, if you place the connector on the cube and lift (transport) it, it keeps the connections active.

[playful_tux]

Originally posted by KvaGram:

This entire discussion feels on par with the forum discussions in-game. Wait.. which one of us is 1k here? Are all of us 1k?

JEREMY CLOSED THE THREAD