The Talos Principle 2

The Talos Principle 2

View Stats:
Andy79rus Nov 8, 2023 @ 4:17am
Prometheus's fire sparks
We need a hint for Prometheus's fire sparks on current map - local map counter (like stars/lost labs/etc., but (!) not a map/compas hint, as we have global counter for this. And an achievement for collecting them all.
< >
Showing 1-15 of 34 comments
Rushin Nov 8, 2023 @ 4:46am 
Honest question: why are y'all so obsessed with the sparks?

I'm an OCD 100% completionist myself and despite solving all puzzles and monuments I really, really couldn't care less about the sparks. Collected 5 of them in my 100% save file. The locations are far too large, boring, and dull to "explore" them for sparks and the sparks themselves are of no value to me either.

Basically I'm no stranger to grindy/collectathon achievements but those sparks in particular I somehow really don't care about.

I agree there should be a local counter for them just like for the stars. But I strongly disagree about having an achievement for collecting them all - unless they show up on the compass, which is something you don't want also.
Last edited by Rushin; Nov 8, 2023 @ 5:30am
糾う Nov 8, 2023 @ 5:05am 
Does collecting all of them unlock anything? It makes sense to not include them on the map if they don't.
mreed2 Nov 8, 2023 @ 5:28am 
Collecting all the sparks allows you to skip a large number of puzzles. That's the only reason they exist. If you don't want to skip puzzles, there is no reason to collect them.
Chocos Ramabotti Nov 8, 2023 @ 5:42am 
I don't think there needs to be a counter for them nor does the game need to implement counters for everything. I like the feeling that I might be able still to discover something that the game hasn't indicated in the first place. I don't like this whole collect-a-thon attitude in such cases. I mean the sparks have a purpose on its own, they are "wildcards", why should someone collect all of them for a pointless "well done"? I never intended to use them in the first place, so let it stay a little surprise for those players who are weaker in puzzles, but not that weak that they don't look up the solution in the internet... (tbh do these kind of players even exist?)
I think they aren't needed but gamifying game help is always more appreciated in my book, than just a lazy "skip puzzle" option with no tribute, at least you find something worthwhile in the open world. These whole collectible achievements are for things that only serve a purpose if you found all of them, like stars, but sparks aren't like this.
Last edited by Chocos Ramabotti; Nov 8, 2023 @ 5:43am
joridiculous Nov 8, 2023 @ 5:52am 
non of the "fire sparks" are far from the puzzles themselves. But they can hide in various way like high up, in the water, on top of or inside some structures. Still hard too find all of them,
but still like in the "play area" and not like the "artefacts" that can be at the very edge of map. (Sometime the Prometheus "spirit" will guide to them and other interesting areas)
Rushin Nov 8, 2023 @ 6:07am 
Originally posted by Chocos Ramabotti:
why should someone collect all of them for a pointless "well done"?
It's an excellent point. Thing is, some people evidently want to collect them all anyway. And to them not having information about which sparks have been found sucks.

Hence I propose this: don't add another counter to the completion list. Instead, put a small sprite of a flame in the corner of that same "area card" (above 8/8, 2/2 etc counters) for each spark you find. This way it doesn't affect 100%, the game doesn't even tell how many there are per area (you figure it out), but it still tells you how many you found and where.
Last edited by Rushin; Nov 9, 2023 @ 1:50am
Wissaul Nov 8, 2023 @ 6:25am 
I found almost all the sparks, with the exception of one in north-1 and one in south-3
I don't use them, but finding them gives me a deep sense of satisfaction
Goblin Nov 8, 2023 @ 6:39am 
Originally posted by Chocos Ramabotti:
I don't think there needs to be a counter for them nor does the game need to implement counters for everything.
Bad phrasing, there already is a counter for them. There just isn't a checklist of some sort.
But denoting which ones you've found in which area is not a useless pat on the back, it just lets people know where to look so you don't have to scour every map for hours because you didn't keep track of which ones you found where. Even in the original's small maps that would have been dumb, let alone the empty monstrosities this game contains. Rushin's solution above would be plenty, no fanfare for finding them all or NPC dialogue, just something that can help you discern where to look.
Andy79rus Nov 8, 2023 @ 6:48am 
Originally posted by Rushin':
Honest question: why are y'all so obsessed with the sparks?

The humble answer is that finding them in this great game is a little bit of fun. Why not?

Now it is not clear where and on what map they were missed during the search, if the player really wants to find them all, regardless of the reasons. If you find them all, why not get a separate new one achievement for this, since there is an achievement for finding the first one?
Chocos Ramabotti Nov 8, 2023 @ 7:24am 
Originally posted by Rushin':
It's an excellent point. Thing is, some people evidently want to collect them all anyway. And to them not having information about which sparks have been found sucks.

But I think there is another point that should be considered. Checklists overall create FOMO and/or OCD, when something has an indicator that is measured you will feel inclined to complete the tasks, even if there is no added value to it. Many modern games are actually criticized for its overabundance of checklists.

At this point you only care for completion just for completionists sake. I know that feeling from "CrossCode", which is an action rpg with tons of hidden hard to reach chests which are counted for every area. 99% of the chests content is basically trash, but that's not why you open them, you open them because you want that indicator going 46/46 for example. But if you don't even know that some chests exist, you wouldn't care about them, wouldn't it be for the indicator

To be frank I think there is actually no point to such chests counters besides that completion urge, the content of the chests should be what you care for, not the overarching meta goal of opening them all, but somehow priorities have shifted, perfection has become some sort of compulsion. But I wonder why isn't there a checklist for every single yellow coin throughout all the levels in super mario games?

Imagine there would be, the whole approach how you play the levels would change, many would play them more slowly, feeling forced to search up everything, becoming impatient if you missed one or two. It would feel much more restrictive.

I think deciding if you want to design such informations transparent to the players have a huge effect on players psyche and the overall experience with the game.

I think checklists do make sense for a certain amount of objects you require to fulfill a greater, not reappearing purpose (that's basically a collectible to me)
But as coins in Mario are simply pick ups for lifes which are not required to complete the game ( but make it easier) , these prometheus sparks are pick ups to grant you more lenience in order for you to push through the puzzles. Indicating them would again make people feel compelled to search all nooks and crannies, although they don't seek them for their inherent value. But when I search for an abandoned lab for example, I am interested in the content itself, the motivation is tied to the lab itself, not the meta goal to find all of them, so as such there is a point that these are indicated.

Edit:
Another argument that comes to my mind, you cannot hide a pick-up like Prometheus sparks too well if they are indicated, cause people will get angry if they can't find them or do even claim that the developers are wasting their time with unfair placement. Like I said what you don't see or know doesn't matter to you, but if you stumble upon a well hidden secret per accident, you will feel much more rewarded without the pressure to "stumble" upon all of it.
Imagine all the easter eggs on the first Talos Principle game where indicated, that would be horrible, they are so genious because you might stumble upon them, not knowing they existed.
Last edited by Chocos Ramabotti; Nov 8, 2023 @ 7:32am
Andy79rus Nov 8, 2023 @ 7:54am 
Originally posted by Chocos Ramabotti:
...

Are you ready to write your dissertation?

Dude, it's a game. This game has secrets, even if they are insignificant, but even the first Doom game had a counter for secrets on a level. Anyone who want, will search, and wants only a small hint - where else to look, nothing more. Those who really need - them can find everything and may be get the achievement. Those who don’t need it at all - may not even look for.
Tilen Nov 8, 2023 @ 8:00am 
Gehenna has broken me. I always read these discussions like they've been written by Croteam.
Goblin Nov 8, 2023 @ 8:22am 
Originally posted by Chocos Ramabotti:
At this point you only care for completion just for completionists sake. I know that feeling from "CrossCode", which is an action rpg with tons of hidden hard to reach chests which are counted for every area. 99% of the chests content is basically trash, but that's not why you open them, you open them because you want that indicator going 46/46 for example. But if you don't even know that some chests exist, you wouldn't care about them, wouldn't it be for the indicator

To be frank I think there is actually no point to such chests counters besides that completion urge, the content of the chests should be what you care for, not the overarching meta goal of opening them all, but somehow priorities have shifted, perfection has become some sort of compulsion. But I wonder why isn't there a checklist for every single yellow coin throughout all the levels in super mario games?
I haven't played CrossCode, but I imagine from your description that these chests aren't exactly amazing puzzles to find. That's a big difference - I've seen a few sparks in this game tthat I knew how to get but didn't care to actually do so, because it'd just involve walking my way up a large obstacle and jumping off a few times until I get it. The one with the fan and button on the other hand, I did want to get because it seemed like a puzzle. I can confidently tell you that if they were tracked, I'd just ignore the former anyway, but if I wanted to search for more of the latter type I'd at least know where I may have to look. The bigger issue here is that most of them aren't interesting to get, not whether they're tracked or not, much like normal coins in Mario.

Speaking of Mario, specifically Mario Wonder: you have to get 3 large purple coins and for some reason reach the top of the flagpole on each level if you want 100% completion. The purple coins just give you some currency but are hidden in interesting ways, and are fun to find. The flagpole generally isn't very interesting to reach the top on, and missing it just pisses people off that they have to replay the level for just that. Both are required to unlock a final level, but true 100% requires you to also buy a bunch of standees which do literally nothing. Guess which one people (in my experience discussing the game) have a problem with: it's not the standees.
Chocos Ramabotti Nov 9, 2023 @ 1:35am 
Originally posted by Goblin:
Originally posted by Chocos Ramabotti:
At this point you only care for completion just for completionists sake. I know that feeling from "CrossCode", which is an action rpg with tons of hidden hard to reach chests which are counted for every area. 99% of the chests content is basically trash, but that's not why you open them, you open them because you want that indicator going 46/46 for example. But if you don't even know that some chests exist, you wouldn't care about them, wouldn't it be for the indicator

To be frank I think there is actually no point to such chests counters besides that completion urge, the content of the chests should be what you care for, not the overarching meta goal of opening them all, but somehow priorities have shifted, perfection has become some sort of compulsion. But I wonder why isn't there a checklist for every single yellow coin throughout all the levels in super mario games?
I haven't played CrossCode, but I imagine from your description that these chests aren't exactly amazing puzzles to find. That's a big difference - I've seen a few sparks in this game tthat I knew how to get but didn't care to actually do so, because it'd just involve walking my way up a large obstacle and jumping off a few times until I get it. The one with the fan and button on the other hand, I did want to get because it seemed like a puzzle. I can confidently tell you that if they were tracked, I'd just ignore the former anyway, but if I wanted to search for more of the latter type I'd at least know where I may have to look. The bigger issue here is that most of them aren't interesting to get, not whether they're tracked or not, much like normal coins in Mario.

Speaking of Mario, specifically Mario Wonder: you have to get 3 large purple coins and for some reason reach the top of the flagpole on each level if you want 100% completion. The purple coins just give you some currency but are hidden in interesting ways, and are fun to find. The flagpole generally isn't very interesting to reach the top on, and missing it just pisses people off that they have to replay the level for just that. Both are required to unlock a final level, but true 100% requires you to also buy a bunch of standees which do literally nothing. Guess which one people (in my experience discussing the game) have a problem with: it's not the standees.

I mean I get it SMB Wonder has some artificial collectibles and they artificially tie it to completion in order to gain access to the final secret level. (yes even the standees)
But they still are all required in order to unlock something greater.

Besides I don't think collecting the sparks is too intruiging either, basically they are just placed anywhere on the map, there is no puzzle solving or thinking outside the wall in order to obtain them.

I don't doubt that you and OP do have fun chasing these sparks I just want to point out that it still comes with a trade-off. I think it's important to think beforehand which informations you want to lay out transparent and which not. I'm already glad there is more in the game beyond what it tracks only in percentages. That's unrelated but I prefer if some mysteries are keep left. I think it's incredibly boring if percentages tell you how far you are into the game.
I think there are enough completion obsessed people who will create completion guides for the game soon, the same always happens to FromSoft games, who never indicate anything. (and so they can surprise you with unexpected length and secret areas)
SunBeam Nov 9, 2023 @ 2:03am 
Just like in other topics.. people have skipped most of the text, most of the story, all they care about is OCD and achievements. The game principle: EXPLORATION. The protagonists do not know the island and its areas. They're on an EXPEDITION to investigate the lands. As such, how the F do you want the Devs to give you maps and locations of UNKNOWN (yet) objects? Think for a bit, for F's sake...

Talos 1 didn't have a map either. You played that one? No? Cool, start with that.

As for the overall concept around these games: they are designed to be explored, like it or not, and not to spoon-feed you locations of objects. They're made in the Myth series fashion, but albeit here you have a LOT of guidance. Even so, it's not enough for the cringe people bent on their megalomaniac attempts to get 100% completion, as if they would be remembered by society for utterly wasting their time over digital content.
Last edited by SunBeam; Nov 9, 2023 @ 2:05am
< >
Showing 1-15 of 34 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Nov 8, 2023 @ 4:17am
Posts: 34