Level limit, why ?

[Papa Ours]

Hi, I got to level 50 and to my surprise the level is stuck there. My character is a human and as such I concluded that he would never stop learning.
Anyway we are already limited by the slots of weapons and ship equipment so why take away the fun of being able to level up after 50 ? Same for the npc's.
What do you think about that ?

[Laious]

Originally posted by RicWalker:

i quite like Jin's idea! What you do gets you seperate exp for each skill tree. it would be the mount and blade bannerlord approach, or the Skyrim leveling system.
Something like that would really be awesome in Star Valor!

We kinda have that already in the Knowledge. Of course it's not the same as the skill tree, but it is something you level by actions and you can already have all maxed out. Later on I intend to make it more useful, and I'm always considering other expansions after 50.
BTW, as I said, I will be adding a special perk that removes your level limit, eventually ;)

[RicWalker]

Originally posted by Laious:

Originally posted by RicWalker:

i quite like Jin's idea! What you do gets you seperate exp for each skill tree. it would be the mount and blade bannerlord approach, or the Skyrim leveling system.
Something like that would really be awesome in Star Valor!

We kinda have that already in the Knowledge. Of course it's not the same as the skill tree, but it is something you level by actions and you can already have all maxed out. Later on I intend to make it more useful, and I'm always considering other expansions after 50.
BTW, as I said, I will be adding a special perk that removes your level limit, eventually ;)

i know, Laious. i read the post you revealed that skill. What i mean is a more direct use of the exp types. like you own a skill point for the combat tree every time you gain 10k EXP with blowing up enemies.
Such a system does more support your own playstyle. at least thats what i feel from such systems. It is less free, but feels more rewarding.
Because right now, if i dont force a different playstyle on me, i have my own skillpoint distribution order. and its all the same, all the time i start fresh.
But if i get points for what i am doing, than i will skill some things i would normally never pick. For example, i do a lot of quests, that should give social tree EXP. So i would get frequently Skill Points (=SP) for the social tree. If i have points for that tree i would actually spent them. but in the current system you only have 50 SP and there are more than 50 points to spent on very good skills. Sadly, none of them is in the social tree for me.
It is:
18 go into Buisness
16 into combat
16 into enginiering

Exploration has its merrits if you want to fly Titan, Cerberus and Co. but compared to the others its inferior skills

And Social has not a single skill worth sacrificing an SP that could be spent for another of the more useful skills.

Now that i put the effort in the last hour to sit down and actually analyze all the skills i would go as far to say, that i would not even touch social skills if we had 70 SP to spent.

With 70 i would spent:

18 Buisness
18 Engineering
17 Combat
17 Exploration

Even 80 SP would only change to max out Engineering and Buisness.

Why buisness of all things? Because with that 18 Points spent on my first 17 level ups, i "speedrun" my Titan or equivalent class 6 ship in about 2-3 hours and would still have about another million credits to fully equip it. And no, i dont exploit anything. its just how that tree changes the current trading from not worth to money printing. it got nerfed a bit with the latest updates but if you know what to trade and where to trade, its still the most reliable and fastest way to get millionair and max level in Star Valor.

[WeaverSong]

I think it's amusing how polar the social skill tree is - some people will dismiss it as completely useless, and other people will treat it as one of the strongest. I tend toward the latter, with 3 in particular being practically mandatory in every run:

Born Leader: +5% to Energy Generation, Energy Storage, Shield Power, Shield Regen, Shield Absorption, Acceleration, Top Speed, Turn Speed, Strafe Speed, Scanner Power, Sensor Power, Warp Distance, Reducing Warp Cost, Cargo Space, Mining Speed, Mining Loot, Scavenging Loot, and Trading. 5% isn't much, but it adds up to a lot when applied to everything like that.

Prodigy: Massive bonus to my co-pilot if I'm in a small ship, otherwise valuable bonus to my First Officer, or to all my gunners if I'm in a capital venghi ship. If I don't have a co-pilot/first officer, and I'm not in a capital venghi ship it's questionable.

Master and Commander: Makes all my crew stronger than they could be without it, over time (they'll evolve more and gain skills more, and are way more likely to reach orange)

[Zarinthal]

Originally posted by WeaverSong:

I think it's amusing how polar the social skill tree is - some people will dismiss it as completely useless, and other people will treat it as one of the strongest. I tend toward the latter, with 3 in particular being practically mandatory in every run:

Born Leader: +5% to Energy Generation, Energy Storage, Shield Power, Shield Regen, Shield Absorption, Acceleration, Top Speed, Turn Speed, Strafe Speed, Scanner Power, Sensor Power, Warp Distance, Reducing Warp Cost, Cargo Space, Mining Speed, Mining Loot, Scavenging Loot, and Trading. 5% isn't much, but it adds up to a lot when applied to everything like that.

Prodigy: Massive bonus to my co-pilot if I'm in a small ship, otherwise valuable bonus to my First Officer, or to all my gunners if I'm in a capital venghi ship. If I don't have a co-pilot/first officer, and I'm not in a capital venghi ship it's questionable.

Master and Commander: Makes all my crew stronger than they could be without it, over time (they'll evolve more and gain skills more, and are way more likely to reach orange)

haha yeah remember when crew first got implemented, it was months before I took it seriously because I had played over 1,000 hours before crew and expanded social tree existed, so I just kept forgetting to do anything with it but now social tree is top priority and I spend more time looking at crew than most other things. Crew and Social tree really are HUGE bonuses, but for the longest time I just kept playing the way I played before they existed. I wonder if that has anything to do with the division in the community, how long before and how many hours someone played before crew and social tree expansion got implemented. I get why people want to be able to buy all the skills, more power gen and ENGINEERING branch, more weapons equipped in COMBAT, faster ship from EXPLORATION and a little bit of everything (especially fleet capacity) from SOCIAL. For anyone looking to dominate against gold star lvl 60 hunter fleets, it's really hard to choose because they all have something to offer. Some will say business is useless, but when you are trying to make a lot of custom weapons for fighting hunters, the business branch really help speed things along a lot. Not everyone plays as much as some of us diehards, so even BUSINESS can go a looong way with cash boost, hauling more materials at once.

[Myriad]

Social also helps in the Perks down below...
"Reveals friendly stations." Yes Please!

[RicWalker]

Originally posted by WeaverSong:

I think it's amusing how polar the social skill tree is - some people will dismiss it as completely useless, and other people will treat it as one of the strongest. I tend toward the latter, with 3 in particular being practically mandatory in every run:

Born Leader: +5% to Energy Generation, Energy Storage, Shield Power, Shield Regen, Shield Absorption, Acceleration, Top Speed, Turn Speed, Strafe Speed, Scanner Power, Sensor Power, Warp Distance, Reducing Warp Cost, Cargo Space, Mining Speed, Mining Loot, Scavenging Loot, and Trading. 5% isn't much, but it adds up to a lot when applied to everything like that.

Prodigy: Massive bonus to my co-pilot if I'm in a small ship, otherwise valuable bonus to my First Officer, or to all my gunners if I'm in a capital venghi ship. If I don't have a co-pilot/first officer, and I'm not in a capital venghi ship it's questionable.

Master and Commander: Makes all my crew stronger than they could be without it, over time (they'll evolve more and gain skills more, and are way more likely to reach orange)

sigh... i dreaded it, but lets talk about it:

You have to spent 5 Points in either in Renown or Prestige to get to the next tier unlock.

Renown: you are considerd as 10 levels higher by the AI
Analyse (A): only useful until you are max level and when hireing mercenaries and only if you are so afraid of combat that you need an escort. worthless compared to other skills.

Prestige: 50% reduced hire cost and expenses for crew and -10 level requirements
A: hire cost reduction is laughable compared to how often you find crew in escape pods or how easy you can swim in cash through mining and trading. currently regular payment for the crew is not implemented, so the expenses reduction is useless right now. the reduction in level requirement is rather nice though.

Next Tier is:

Presence: 50% higher chance of intimidation to work and lower mercenary costs
A: only worth in a pirate roleplay where you try to press money from civilians before blowing them up. Mercenary Costs could work in synergy with Renown skill to drastically lower their kill bounty. (need to test how much that actually affects the prices maybe its bugged and they pay YOU on kills)

Born leader: Crew efficiency +5% (+3 aiming for gunners)
A: a very situational skill that only effects the player ships crew and only truly profits if you fly a big one. i am talking Titan or Cerberus with lots of crew. if you fly a yacht or corvette its pretty useless.

Next Tier:

Leadership: (Requires Precense 5) Fleet Commander +10, 10% damage reduction and +1 agility
A: Must have if you do field a fleet sadly walled behind very situational "Presence"

Prodigy: (Requires Born leader 5) The first Crew member (usually Co-Pilot or First Officer) gets +1 tier level and enhanced effects to all skill bonuses
A: with the recent addition of the patreon crew members, this is a really good one, no one can argue against that.

Ultimate Skill:
Master and Commander: (requires 15 SP spent in social) Crew members evolve and gain new skills twice as fast
A: a good one if you fly a big ship with lots of crew, less good on small player ship, but even without it, crew levels decently fast enough. unclear if it effects captains of fleet ships and their crew (but i doubbt that).

Synopsis: if i have to choose it would be "Prestige" over "Renown" and only because i have to spent at least 5 SP to get to the good ones
Clearly "Born Leader" over "Presence", i doubt anyone would argue that. So "Prodigy" is a must pick after that.
The problem is, that to get to "Master and Commander" (nice Easter Egg by the way Laious ^^), you have to at least spent 4 points into "Renown" or "Precence".
That means you are sacrificing 9 SP to get to 3 decent Skills where two are only very good on large ships.
Objectively those 16 to 17 SP are way more valuable spent in the other trees.

[WeaverSong]

Renown: I agree that it's pretty useless.
Prestige: Very useful early game, not so much later.
Presence: Situational; Nice with fleets, as it lets you get a few good ships past your FC limit.
Born Leader: I find it very good in ships of all sizes (as long as it has at least a co-pilot)
Leadership: Still only good for fleets, but it looks like it's been some months since you last looked at it, that's not what it does anymore.
Prodigy: Agree.
M&C: Good on all ships (with crew, even just co-pilot). Essential for maxing your power, especially on small ships (co-pilot is the most powerful slot by far, and the jump from purple to orange is massive)

It's largely a matter of how important it is to min-max - if so, social is essential. As that's a matter of opinion, these skills, like all the others, are a subjective matter, not an objective one.

[Moon-Shadow]

Just seen.

"Born Leaders"

In German it says practically nothing, only 1% on crew, nothing that affects anything.

Therefore, it is new to me that it should have an effect on everything.

[WeaverSong]

It increases the efficiency of all crew slots that have at least 1 crewmember in them (or a co-pilot with that skill). That's just the list of all the things that crew can affect.

[Moon-Shadow]

Then there should be an example of what it does.

Hence it looked useless as I don't see what it does.

And i therefore don't waste my reset if I don't know how and what it affects.

[RicWalker]

Originally posted by Moon-Shadow:

Just seen.

"Born Leaders"

In German it says practically nothing, only 1% on crew, nothing that affects anything.

Therefore, it is new to me that it should have an effect on everything.

it says on my game on 5/5:

Creweffizienz +5% (+3 Zielen für Schützen)

English:
That means: Open your inventory or look at the hangar in a station. select on the left the crew Tab and hover with the mouse over the crew position efficiency. you now get a popup that explains what it affects. For example Pilot effects maximum speed, asceleration, turnrate and driftspeed. Each time your pilot levels up, that gets an efficiency bonus. that bonus is increased by another 1% for each level of "Born Leader"
Aiming is only useful if you have gunners on autofire and thats only on the bigger ships.
Granted, that bonus will matter more together with Master and Commander, but i need to test if that 5% is applied flat (that would be way to small) or if its aplied to the total efficiency afterwards. that could mean a rather massive increase. For example does it mean a 200% efficient pilot becomes 205% or 210% (=200*1,05) but even in that case its effect would be rather small...
Would 16 SP really be worth such small growth in stats and crew leveling speed while you could have direct flat increases to other stats like dps, shields and movement if you would spent those SP in the other trees?

German:
Öffne dein Inventar oder betritt den Hangar auf einer Station und wechsle dort am linken rand zur Mannschaft Ansicht. Geh mit der Maus auf eine der Prozentzahlen neben der Crewposition. Zum beispiel Pilot. im Mausfenster wird dir nun angezeigt, was genau ein Crewmitglied in dieser Rolle verbessert. in diesem Fall Höchstgeschwindigkeit, Beschleunigung, Drehgeschwindigkeit und Seitwärtsbewegung. Jedes mal wenn der Pilot einen Rang aufsteigt, erhöht sich die Effizienz dieser Werte um einen kleinen Betrag. Geborener Anführer steigert diesen Wert noch einmal um 1% je punkt in diese Fähigkeit. Die frage ist, ob diese 5% direkt drauf kommen oder den Grundwert um 5% erhöht. letzteres würde bei großen Zahlen einen deutlich höheren Bonus ergeben. Also beispielsweise bei einem 200% Piloten würde das bei einem Direktaufschlag 205% ergeben. bei einer Erhöhung um 5% würde es jedoch 200 * 1,05 = 210% ergeben. Recht gering, selbst mit so hohem Grundwert ehrlich gesagt. Mit Master and Commander würde man seine Crew schneller leveln, aber sind 16 Talentpunkte wirklich einen so kleinen Bonus Wert? Sind die nicht besser aufgehoben in Talenten anderer Bäume die direkt Schilde, Triebwerke oder Waffenschade erhöhen?

[WeaverSong]

16 would be a lot if the growth bonus was purely short-term. But given time, say a full run (which is why I almost always go social first) it easily becomes the most powerful bonus.

And don't underestimate 5% when it's applied to 18 things. That's a total of 90% bonus, not counting gunner accuracy. Even without gunners it's still one of the strongest overall bonuses.

[RicWalker]

Originally posted by WeaverSong:

16 would be a lot if the growth bonus was purely short-term. But given time, say a full run (which is why I almost always go social first) it easily becomes the most powerful bonus.

And don't underestimate 5% when it's applied to 18 things. That's a total of 90% bonus, not counting gunner accuracy. Even without gunners it's still one of the strongest overall bonuses.

That is not how it works ^^

Ten times an increase of 5% does not mean you improve by 50%. In your gunner example each gunners weapon deals 105 instead of 100 damage per second. that means your entire ships dps would increase from 1000 to 1050 dmage per second. thats still only a 5% increase in dps.

what makes that skill good is if it would work that way:

level 1 Gunner means 101% efficiency.
Level 50 Gunner means 151% efficiency.
He shoots a continous laser beam with 100 base DPS
so without skills
Level 1 Gunner deals 101 DPS
Level 50 Gunner deals 151 DPS

On flat 5% increase that would mean the dmg would be this:

Level 1 Gunners DPS is 100 * 1,06 = 106
Level 50 Gunners DPS is 100 * 1,56 = 156

if its increasing the efficiency falue by 5% it would be:

Level 1 Gunners DPS is 100 * (1,01 * 1,05) = 106,05
Level 50 Gunners DPS is 100 * (1,51 * 1,05) = 158,05

Either way not that big of an increase. Shure thing, your ship would perform slightly better in all aspects. but you would need to spent 10 points in social to get full use of this rather small bonus and 6 more, to get your crew to this higer levels faster.
If thats what you want, by all means: go for it!

The problem i see with the social tree is, that those 3 skills are jack of all trades increases, masters of non. While putting this 10 to 17 points into the other trees allow me to really specialise my ship. Going Master and Commander would need me to sacrifice combat or engeniering capabilities, because the 18 into Buisness simply are too good to pass. and i take the flat 25% Armor and 20% Shield increases over 5 to 10ish % in everything.

[Plüschtiger]

Originally posted by RicWalker:

Originally posted by WeaverSong:

16 would be a lot if the growth bonus was purely short-term. But given time, say a full run (which is why I almost always go social first) it easily becomes the most powerful bonus.

And don't underestimate 5% when it's applied to 18 things. That's a total of 90% bonus, not counting gunner accuracy. Even without gunners it's still one of the strongest overall bonuses.

That is not how it works ^^

Ten times an increase of 5% does not mean you improve by 50%. In your gunner example each gunners weapon deals 105 instead of 100 damage per second. that means your entire ships dps would increase from 1000 to 1050 dmage per second. thats still only a 5% increase in dps.

.......

The problem i see with the social tree is, that those 3 skills are jack of all trades increases, masters of non. While putting this 10 to 17 points into the other trees allow me to really specialise my ship. Going Master and Commander would need me to sacrifice combat or engeniering capabilities, because the 18 into Buisness simply are too good to pass. and i take the flat 25% Armor and 20% Shield increases over 5 to 10ish % in everything.

In reality it doesn't depend on the crew member's level, does it? What it depends on is efficiency and value in skills?

Example as I understand it:

1% more income from crew at 100% efficiency = 1%. At 109% = 1.09% and the 5% from social on top we end up with 1.14% = at 100$/€ = +0.14$/€ more. But only if you have the required number of crew, otherwise the efficiency is well below 100% and with it the efficiency of all connected equipment and probably also skills. I also had to learn that if you need 2 engineers, only have one means that your equipment only performs at 50%.

I also don't think that you can push the system with the right choice of crew (mutually reinforcing). Even if, it's probably like Ralo or social, you burn a lot of bonuses to compensate for one thing just to make a few worth mentioning. (translated)

[Dragonsblade]

Could you not just add the option to gain a bonus skill point every 10 levels for 5 bonus points, or every 5 levels for 10 bonus points.
I would love the option to mod the game, for extra points, as I just like having everything in 1 save. Especially with some points having to be wasted to get the much better skills. See above posts for some of them.