Kingdom Rush Vengeance suggestions and wishlists

[February]

Since the newest Kingdom Rush is in the making, let's help the devs make the best version they can make with our input. There already is such a topic on their official forum, but there's not much going on there.

General

• The Steam version needs to finally have rebindable keybinds. I'm used to the ones already established but come on, this is industry standard for years now.
  
• Large Mouse Pointer option needs to be more accurate.
  
• More achievements in general, more creative ones.
  
• The Encyclopedia needs to be either accessible from within the Stage, to quickly look up Enemy stats, or a new UI needs to be created to show all Enemy information instead as we click on them with the mouse.
  
• Keep the permanent leveling system for heroes. It's clear by now it is superior to first KR game.
  
• Make gaining experience a bit faster on earlier stages. Due to achievements, we're often required to replay early stages and our Heroes don't even get 1 lvl up from that. Make it a scaling thing: for each Hero you have at lvl 10, all other Heroes you play on earlier stages get a % EXP bonus increase up to a certain stage, so that it's a bit faster to level them up. Why? It's easy to get the first ~3 Heroes to lvl 10, but after that it becomes a bit of an unnecessary grinding chore.
  
• Stop hiding vital information from us. Once you upgrade a Tower's ability to max, you can't even see its description no more to look up how much damage it does, how often etc. Be clear and PRECISE in damage numbers, cooldown timers and duration of things. Example from Origins: Bravebark's Oakseeds ability states "Summon 2 greenlings with BEST attack and health" - this tells me NOTHING of value. Write numbers and don't be afraid to show them to us.
  
• As a follow-up to the above: the UI needs a re-design. The fact that we can't even see our Spell ability cooldowns displayed in SECONDS on the screen in 2018 is weird, to say the least. The fading out overlay is decent but you guys can do better than that. As mentioned, don't hide information from us, lay it out in the open.
  
• Expand on the "calling a Wave early" mechanic. Right now, if you call it asap, it gives very little gold. Make this an actual strategic option to consider; one that would give considerably more gold the faster you call it, but it would also spawn additional enemies if called early. Seeing something miniscule like 20g boost for calling a wave early is a little lame. A somewhat decent example of a nice gold boost was the Frontiers stage with the clickable sleeping black dragon or Origin's Neverwonder stage with the "shrooms" minigame that gives considerable gold but is, unfortunately, a very tedious mechanic to pay attention to in order to get advantage from.

Upgrades

• It'd be nice to have a few additional upgrades in each category; for Archers, Mages, Siege towers etc. Even if just because of the "Star" surplus we always end up with. Make the upgrade tree more complex, more interesting. I really like what you did in Origins, but I'd love to see more upgrades. I've mentioned this in my Frontiers review and you've acknowledged the "Stars" surplus issue, so I'm hoping you're already doing something with this.
  
• Balance the upgrades out a bit more so that it's not always the best choice to first finish upgrading the "Spell" and "Mercenaries" upgrades in each KR game and leave Tower upgrades for last.

Heroes

• Really like that you gave Heroes a new, themed Spell. That's a move in right direction. Origins also has more balanced healing/restoration-related abilities compared to first 2 games, so good on that.
  
• It'd be nice if Vengeance had 1 additional level in each Hero "Ability" for us to upgrade, or if they had 1 more ability, just to make things more interesting. As a result, you might want to increase the max Hero level to 15 with that.
  
• I absolutely love what you did with Eridan. He's actually a ranged Hero, but his "damage" icon is shown as "melee" and he's actually great at blocking singular enemies. We need a few more heroes that.
  
• Blocking is arguably the most important ability a Hero can have in the game, which means that Heroes who don't block well are automatically worse than those who do. Heroes who can hit flying enemies are also automatically better, and 1-hit KO abilities are also very important, so please take this into account when creating Vengeance Heroes, so that many of them aren't that strictly worse than the "best" ones.

Towers

• I love what you did with Barracks, making Barrack soldiers shoot flying enemies from the lvl 2 upgrade. This made Barracks way more interesting and viable, unlike in other versions, where you had to specifically specialize a Barrack tower for its soldiers to be able to hit flying enemies for example. Do more of that, because Barracks are the least useful Tower type in the franchise (we always build the least of them).
  
• I would love if you got out of your comfort zone and created an additional upgrade for all towers. Or 1 more "specialization" path per each tower type. What you have now is true and tested, it works, but at the same time it's also become a little stale. We need more options and greater variety in tower choices.

Enemies

• We need a greater variety of them. We're used to being introduced to small and weak enemies, then face progressively stronger and "bigger" ones. It has gotten a little dull to see that same pattern over and over in each game. Make more creative enemies with abilities that alter the gameplay in a way we have not seen before. For example, create unmanned towers on Stages that the enemies can occupy and start shooting at our Barracks units and Hero, because why not!
  
• Consider adding some or more "sub-bosses" to stages, so that we get a taste for the "boss" coming in.
  
• How about enemies that could actually hurt and eventually destroy our towers? Not just disable them, like some bosses do on certain stages, but completely destroy them to put a dent in our Gold management? So far, only certain Bosses used to do this (last Frontiers boss if I recall). But not in a way that all enemies who stumble upon a tower immediatelly stop moving and attack it; I'm thinking more along the lines of a special kind of enemy that would do periodic damage to our towers, say destroying it within the course of 3 waves. Don't make it overwhelmingly present, of course, but more of a stage-specific thing, just to add more variety and strategy.

Stages

• We need more stages, pure and simple. The usual pattern of 15 stages on release, then upping it to 22 is just not enough for an awesome game like this. Consider making the base # of stages 20, then adding up to 30 via further DLCs. Lengthen the game like that.
  
• It is about time the PC version gets something akin to the "Endless" mode that the mobile version had. Frankly, I don't know why we've been stripped of that new gameplay mode. And if not, then create a new gameplay mode, so that there are more interesting ways for us to level up remaining Heroes than just repeating the stages we already know.
  
• Add a bit more randomness to the stages. New paths opening was a great idea and I'd love to see more of that. As mentioned, consider adding unmanned towers that enemies could occupy and harass our Hero.
  
• Consider adding more environmental occurences, e.g. once in a while, a waterfall would spew across the stage, wiping out our Barracks units. You did this before in previous games, but the more variety the better. Not too much, but a bit more would be awesome.
  
• Please make Heroic and Iron modes considerably different from one another. Right now, the Iron mode's tower restrictions tell us EXACTLY what the best tower choices are for Heroic mode as well, at least most of the time. That's an unnecessary dead giveaway and an advantage to us. So please differentiate both modes and make them more interesting. Also, does Heroic mode always need to have only 6 waves and Iron only 1? Switch it up a bit, make it different per each stage, make it unique, so that these modes are actually challenging on Veteran.
  
• I loved the Stages that had stage-specific towers for them, like the Dwarven Barracks in Frontiers or Elven Renegade Post in Origins. They're so cool but we never get to use or see them outside of those specific stages. Consider making it an unlockable option for Tower upgrades, perhaps making it a 3rd Tower specialization.

Why write all this? Because we can already see some screenshots from Vengeance, and it appears to be largely the same game as the previous ones, at least aesthethics-wise. Don't get me wrong, that's great and your artists need a raise, because the fantasy/whimsical atmosphere the game generates is surely one of its best selling points that helped it stand out.

At the same time, this also has me worried for you guys being too afraid to changing too much in order to really let your franchise shine, grow and expand going into the future. Keep whatever's great about it, no doubt, but don't be afraid to experiment and feel free to use what we write here as examples of how to make the game grow.

If Vengeance will have very few improvements over Origins, I'm afraid I might start losing faith in this franchise, because one can only re-heat the same steak so many times before it starts tasting like rubber. Origins is a decent improvement over Frontiers, but for my taste at least, there's too little improvements and new/fresh things, especially to validate the increased price tag (~33% more expensive) compared to the previous 2 games.

[crono23]

I was a bit uncertain seeing all those paragraphs, but upon giving it a quick read I agree with almost everything you say. Calling a wave early should give a little more gold than it does already, but I think it's balanced out a bit more with the special ability cooldown. Definitely show how many seconds are left on it though.

Highly agree with the more stages suggestion too. It's not bad as it is, but having 1 or 2 more mini campaigns would be great. Endless mode would be appreciated too. Don't know how to feel about adding enviromental occurences or towers enemies can occupy. It feels like it might be more of a nuisance than anything. Excellent suggestions regardless, here's hoping the devs see them!

[Tman]

This is really well written up and I agree with most of the points.

My one feedback is that the number of levels is sufficient if they were to scale with the level of the hero. As it is right now, the levels don't scale, so you are left with a handful of levels that are any sort of challenge with a level 10 hero.

KR: Origins is particularly bad with this. I don't even waste my time on any of the pre-elevated levels and one of the elevated levels (the 2nd one), makes you let all the enemy through instead of utilizing the 2 separated areas unless you have a hero that can teleport.

One thing you didn't mention is a mod where people could create their own set of waves - and the community could utilize the level layouts that have been created, but allow us to create our own content by creating waves of enemies that we could share with others in the community.

[Kleyguerth]

I agree with most of the points except having enemies destroy towers. This wouldn't make the game more strategic, it would fix the strategy around that.

I hated Frontiers boss and I also hate Origins boss (she can also destroy towers) because the fight becomes "fill the stage with worthless level 1 archers for the boss to destroy". That's boring.

[Spirit]

I liked most of the stuff. I just diagree with the stage-specific towers upgrade. What I would suggest is that instead of upgrading them, after you complete the stage with a stage-specific tower, you unlock the possibility to build that building in every stage. You would have to spend money to buy the building, and more money to recruit the units, maybe not as much as in the lvl they appear, but still a considerable price.

This would kinda fit the lore of the game, as different factions join your cause... for a price.

[Gear D4C3]

I agree with some points, with some I don't but in the overall sheme of things it's too late for game changing feedback in Vengeance because the game looks pretty much done but it has at least one big change, you can customize your available tower choices from 16 different towers.

[General_Escor]

xp gainend is really slow on some chars. 1st archer got 10lvl pretty fast, mage got his 10lvl with grind, and pixie is getting nothing for lvl beating. Almost reached the end of campaign and got about 30% on iron

[February]

Originally posted by Tman:

This is really well written up and I agree with most of the points.

My one feedback is that the number of levels is sufficient if they were to scale with the level of the hero. As it is right now, the levels don't scale, so you are left with a handful of levels that are any sort of challenge with a level 10 hero.

A good point indeed. The game has always felt like the stages in them scaled only with new monster types, stronger ones with more health and a generally increased number of them. If you play a single hero from the start for the very first time, you'll hit lvl 10 at like the half-way point or something near that, say at stage 10 maybe. And then indeed, the last 5 stages don't feel that challenging anymore for a lvl 10 Hero.

Very good point!

Originally posted by Tman:

One thing you didn't mention is a mod where people could create their own set of waves - and the community could utilize the level layouts that have been created, but allow us to create our own content by creating waves of enemies that we could share with others in the community.

Ah, that would be the dream, wouldn't it? I would love to see this as well, but seeing how Ironhide had some difficulties bringing Origins to Steam over the last year, I wouldn't be surprised if it just didn't calculate for them time and money-wise to develop a community-driven stage builder like that.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see that, but realistically speaking I'd leave that for the 2nd or 3rd next game in the franchise. I believe a much better choice for them, right now at least, would be for KR: Vengeance to simply introduce more replayability in various ways, such as: more stages in general, a new gameplay mode (vel the Endless mode) and even adding some scalability like you've mentioned. These 3 things combined should be more than enough to make Vengeance much more interesting.

[February]

Originally posted by Gear D4C3:

I agree with some points, with some I don't but in the overall sheme of things it's too late for game changing feedback in Vengeance because the game looks pretty much done but it has at least one big change, you can customize your available tower choices from 16 different towers.

It does kinda look to be done already, indeed. Which is weird, since they've released the trailer for it like what, 1 or 2 months ago, at most? The wishlist topic on their forums (https://forums.ironhidegames.com/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=f6b0d3951711a38783b692c525887234) was created also about 2 months ago, so pretty much as early as it made sense creating it.

I don't expect the devs to change the entire game at this point, but they'd take no harm taking at least some of our ideas into consideration.

Look at it this way - would you like Vengeance, the 4th installment in the series, to have as little overall improvements over Origins as Origins has (and had) over Frontiers? I would be quite disappointed if so little had changed, to be honest.

[February]

Originally posted by Kleyguerth:

I agree with most of the points except having enemies destroy towers. This wouldn't make the game more strategic, it would fix the strategy around that.

I hated Frontiers boss and I also hate Origins boss (she can also destroy towers) because the fight becomes "fill the stage with worthless level 1 archers for the boss to destroy". That's boring.

Hey, I agree as well - these fights weren't necessarily "fun", but that's partly why I suggested a "regular" enemy to be able to dispose some of our towers over the course of several waves, meaning you'd lose like 1 at a time and would be able to re-build it with relative ease. A boss wouldn't necessarily have to do anything with destroying towers in that scenario.

Also, as for the last boss in Origins (at least for the content we have available now), it doesn't destroy your towers, it only disables it. And you can prevent her from doing that by clicking on her (the spider) as she descends. I'm pretty sure the tower-disabling mechanic has received more of a negative than a positive feedback over the years, which is why you don't see hand/mouse icons over towers flashing now, indicating that you should click rapidly on a tower to un-disable it.

What they did with the spider boss was a very decent compromise in my eyes. She only disables one tower at a time and that's easily preventable. In previous games, bosses could disable like 5 of your towers at a time and you'd lose your figners trying to mash-click them in order to free them - that was annoying indeed.

So kudos to Ironhide for the improvement there.

[February]

Originally posted by Spirit:

I liked most of the stuff. I just diagree with the stage-specific towers upgrade. What I would suggest is that instead of upgrading them, after you complete the stage with a stage-specific tower, you unlock the possibility to build that building in every stage. You would have to spend money to buy the building, and more money to recruit the units, maybe not as much as in the lvl they appear, but still a considerable price.

This would kinda fit the lore of the game, as different factions join your cause... for a price.

I believe this is the perfect solution to my suggestion. Don't make it a third tower specialization but just a purchasable option from the start, on every stage, paying even more to recruit units - genious! Could be very similar to those 'huts' in Origins stages where you pay 100g to unlock the tower and then recruit the warriors there for an additional price.

Something like that, yeah.

[Noelll]

Noted! I'll share your suggestions with the devs!

[February]

Thanks Noell. How far are you guys into the development actually, if you don't mind me asking?

[DiscountMortician]

One problem with leveling is that healing counts for nothing. I just got Catha to 10 and it took ages compared to heroes who can't heal. Make "ally healed" count as "enemy killed" to even it out.

The surplus stars bother me a lot, and a third tower upgrade choice might be a solution to this. Perhaps split the tower upgrades into their paths. As it is, there's just the one-size-fits-all upgrade. With two (or a third choice and three) paths, the stars could be invested, i.e. buy an upgrade for Druids specifically instead of Barracks in general.

I'd also like more recruitable units on maps like the yeti or genie. They just make the maps more interesting.

The improvements to Barracks, as others have said, are great, but I feel the artillery tower needs some help as well. It's just too expensive to be relevant, especially if there are only 6 (or 1) waves. Even if they are one of the two available towers they aren't worth the investment most of the time.

[Deso.]

The one thing i found most annoying is stars. Seriously even if i beat all heroic and iron stages, i still got at least in KRO 10 more stars and no idea what do with them.

My solution?

Something like Blizzard did in Legacy Of The Void campaign for Starcraft 2. The addintional stars you got, you can exchange for more resources at start or something.

[DHZ]

Top 3 things I'd like to see:

1. 3 tower specializations
2. Way more upgrades than stars, so that the upgrade tree can never be full. Multiple paths that branch (google "ac origins abilities") so that you can have abilities and skills that work for YOU and your playstyle
3. Environmental occurences and stage-specific towers. I actually DO like how you only get the tower in that stage, makes them really special to use