Very weird/poor game balance

[sauvojen]

The goal of this post is to open and broaden the discussion around the game balance. I enjoy Green Hell gameplay mechanics, atmosphere and especially what it could become with a slight adjustment. So fellow Green Hell enjoyers, lets bring our experiences and suggestions to the board in hopes for developers to notice and improve the game. Here's my experience.

I played the game a while ago (2-3 years ago) but recently returned and despite content additions it feels like nothing really changed. I'm playing survival on the hardest difficulty and 3 hours in I noticed that the game has very poor progression where the difficulty reaches the plateau somewhere when you kill first tribesman and get all of their equipment. Right now I'm at hour 30 in same save file where I have a proper base with everything I would ever need to grow or get lying on the shelves, and that sentiment has only been more supported since nothing really changed for my gear from that 3rd hour, there's no need to craft metal armor - you have armadillo which is so much simpler to make and its slight inferiority to metal can be overlooked, same goes for tools, cooking mechanics peak somewhere when you have an array of large clay pots with mushroom, bone, tobacco and other brews (which you cant even put in a flask to have it on you in expedition), animal husbandry is totally pointless and just wastes resources, my base it at 50w16s and capybaras spawn right next to my doorstep, and they are way too simple to kill and there's simply no justification to build an animal pen and feed them and look after, since now going outside for couple of days would leave animals unattended.

My conclusions:
-No reason to craft any weapons/tools, you have TribesmanExpressTM who deliver everything you might need(maybe only craft an axe/pickaxe once in a while)
-Animal husbandry is just a pointless cost
-Cant pour brews from pots into flasks, that was really one of the things I was looking forward to when venturing to explore but alas
-Metal items production is unjustified for the benefits metal tools/weapons provide, a headshot from metal tip arrow kills a puma in one hit just as well as a regular arrow, and hitboxes are more then generous
-Once you get beehives (I got 6) all other forms of bandages maybe except ash dressing are redundant
-Cant store brews on shelves, they are spilled fsr

There are more stuff to mention, this is just from top of my head, but I want to see whether others would share the same sentiment and if so, maybe we as playerbase might influence game future updates.

[Priest]

Its the old problem every single survivalgame has, you have a nice startgame, and then you suddenly have too much of everything.

The problem is that there is nearly no sollution to this, one sollution would be a NPC Community you need to support, means a ressource drainage

[sauvojen]

Originally posted by Priest:

Its the old problem every single survivalgame has, you have a nice startgame, and then you suddenly have too much of everything.

The problem is that there is nearly no sollution to this, one sollution would be a NPC Community you need to support, means a ressource drainage

The solution would be to introduce scarcity and danger with items that already exist or have very slight additions, - in this case metal tools are more useful and versatile in use, as well as have a greater pool to choose from and are necessary to lets say craft/harvest something;
Tribals are more dangerous, metal armor is a main go to, since currently armadillo armor on hardest difficulty prevents injury that requires tending to in about 8/10 times;
Basic quality of life or even common sense like being able to carry brews in your flask;
Animals are few and have higher detect ranges so animal pen is a very stable way to get protein/animals that are domesticated produce something that aids in craft and only accessible through animal husbandry.
Meanwhile it is true that this is a universal problem for survival games, its now a question for how long the game balance would keep you in this zone of being interested,

[Priest]

With only one item, you can't make it scarcer without turning it into a pain in the ass. Don't forget: you have to survive day one as well.

And more grind probably doesn’t increase the fun of the gameplay. It depends on the grind. An Armorer Table that lets players repair and upgrade armor without micromanagement nightmares could work. Just a table where you place some items and press a “Upgrade and Repair What’s Possible” button.

This could be a good drain mechanic — for example, it could consume up to 4 honey per day. The honey would be an integrated defense in the armor and prevent certain damage.

[HunterKiller]

The ability to use skins/leather collected from harvesting animals would be a good thing in this game because, I'm sure the clothes Jack is wearing are falling apart after a few months due to the elements in the game and from being battle worn. There's only one item to use the cappybara leather for and that to make bongo drums.

[sauvojen]

Originally posted by Priest:

With only one item, you can't make it scarcer without turning it into a pain in the ass. Don't forget: you have to survive day one as well.

And more grind probably doesn’t increase the fun of the gameplay. It depends on the grind. An Armorer Table that lets players repair and upgrade armor without micromanagement nightmares could work. Just a table where you place some items and press a “Upgrade and Repair What’s Possible” button.

This could be a good drain mechanic — for example, it could consume up to 4 honey per day. The honey would be an integrated defense in the armor and prevent certain damage.

Grind is justified if the reward is worth the time investment, if iron tools were worth making them for one or the other reason players would prefer them rather then the cheap counterparts provided from rocks and stone or tribals attacking you. Players feel that sense of satisfaction improving in the game when their real life time spent is reflected within the game it was dedicated to, but here time spent to get highest tier tools is unjustified and disappointing.
Also i agree on the idea of an armor workbench and for that case any other kind of workbench that specializes in upgrading/maintaining tools and gear. On the other hand i didn't quite understand your drain mechanic proposition.

[sauvojen]

Originally posted by HunterKiller:

The ability to use skins/leather collected from harvesting animals would be a good thing in this game because, I'm sure the clothes Jack is wearing are falling apart after a few months due to the elements in the game and from being battle worn. There's only one item to use the cappybara leather for and that to make bongo drums. :Saboteur:

For sure, not only that doesn't make sense how the cloth is still intact after an in game week, its also can be a game mechanic and an interesting way to maintain your cloth you craft from skinning animals. Quiver for arrows that is attached to a backpack would also go in hand with it.

[R-S!N]

I agree, the game could use some better execution of tier/progression difficulty.. and among other things.

Overall it's a good game if you just try to go along with the story and finish it, but not waste too much time trying to stick around an area fiddling with base building stuff over and over.

But that's what I like to do, base build, as well as follow the story.
The balance between the two (base building and story) does need some work.
I guess it's just not easy to "perfect" a game like that.

[AfLIcTeD]

Yeah I gave up the game a while ago as it is just trivial. I was hoping for a proper survival game in the jungle, but what we got is Minecraft in the jungle instead.

If you like base building then you will love it. If you are wanting a pure survival game then you won't.

[LiL blade]

Originally posted by AfLIcTeD:

Yeah I gave up the game a while ago as it is just trivial. I was hoping for a proper survival game in the jungle, but what we got is Minecraft in the jungle instead.

If you like base building then you will love it. If you are wanting a pure survival game then you won't.

what would be considered a pure survival game at that point? despites its piss poor balance its the closest we will ever get to an authentic survival experience

[AfLIcTeD]

Originally posted by LiL blade:

Originally posted by AfLIcTeD:

Yeah I gave up the game a while ago as it is just trivial. I was hoping for a proper survival game in the jungle, but what we got is Minecraft in the jungle instead.

If you like base building then you will love it. If you are wanting a pure survival game then you won't.

what would be considered a pure survival game at that point? despites its piss poor balance its the closest we will ever get to an authentic survival experience

Well getting rid of all this base building for a start and just leaving the basic stuff like beds and campfires. This way you would need to find suitable locations instead of just building a mansion anywhere.

Get rid of anything that makes surviving easier like water collectors, traps, planters and anything else like that. Resources should be scarcer and everything should take a long time to respawn if at all. This would force you to move around as resources start to deplete therefore increasing the risks.

I could go on a while here so I will stop for now.

If they ever made a game mode that did anything like this and focused on the survival part, I would definitely pick this game up again.

[sauvojen]

Originally posted by AfLIcTeD:

Originally posted by LiL blade:

what would be considered a pure survival game at that point? despites its piss poor balance its the closest we will ever get to an authentic survival experience

Well getting rid of all this base building for a start and just leaving the basic stuff like beds and campfires. This way you would need to find suitable locations instead of just building a mansion anywhere.

Get rid of anything that makes surviving easier like water collectors, traps, planters and anything else like that. Resources should be scarcer and everything should take a long time to respawn if at all. This would force you to move around as resources start to deplete therefore increasing the risks.

I could go on a while here so I will stop for now.

If they ever made a game mode that did anything like this and focused on the survival part, I would definitely pick this game up again.

I dont think getting rid of elements making game easier is a proper solution, rather acquiring those elements of ease should become harder, not entirely impossible. For instance youtube channel Primitive Technology showcases a lot of real life ways of survival Green Hell is emulating, that doesnt make real life boring. Its time and value as well as returns from your investment in it that brings joy, and I disagree with your proposition of essentially removing content to make game more engaging and stimulating, it shouldnt be removed but balanced, and have reason to exist and have difficulty of acquisition, creating difficulty curve where you are down for the most part of the game with uncertainty and concern for future constantly planning ahead to survive. And thats where I agree with you, that traveling and scavenging for resources that are now scarce would bring more value to the survival experience, especially in early game, but this shouldnt remove base building altogether, but become means to an end outcome of stability and late game where for instance iron tools have practical extended use just beyond slightly better numbers and unlock new game mechanics that are unavailable with primitive ones. The Long Dark has a very balanced item progression, and yes once you stockpile on every resource survival element is redundant but - the balance makes it so you experience survival and struggle for so much longer, and yo value time spent more as well as see its returns in shape of your in game progression.
In conclusion only realistic changes I see befit of future green hell updates should rework spawnrates, increase animal and tribal detection range, justify iron tools with an overhaul of crafting system where certain and a lot of things can only be done with metal blades/axes etc. and base building akin to iron tools rework should be a part of progression to unlock new levels of technology.

[DWS]

I see about 30 mods on Nexus Mods. Is it possible to balance the game using mods?

I'm still thinking about whether I should buy it..

[LiL blade]

Originally posted by DWS:

I see about 30 mods on Nexus Mods. Is it possible to balance the game using mods?

I'm still thinking about whether I should buy it..

not really since most of those mods only effect things like carry weight and things like that, the only mod that might help with balancing is the one that increases the awareness for animals. imo opinion a good balance mod would be one that makes a clear heirarchy of its tools and weapons, instead of it being like , "the obsidian axe last longer but the metal axe cuts down trees faster" and also has an effect on the health of tribal weapons when you pick them up. a mod that makes the blow gun actually kill predatory animals and tribals would be pretty nice too.

[Grimmrog_SIG]

what kind of balance do you talk about? the entire game? the survival mode?

the story mode is pretty weird, I started building a few planters, a shelter in the cave at the starter location and a fire in front of it, and then never returned. The odd part about the story mode is, you find enough food and shelter (saving and sleeping) everywhere already premade. once around with a simple bone armor nothing really matters unless you constantly step on snakes and stuff.

so what are the entire structures and building hosues for? I don't really know, they are for the sake of fun. Even in survival moe the presence of the premade sleeping points takes most buildings bpurpose completely away.
Survival should have a map without any premade structures, none of the empty villages, no drug, airfield etc.
In fact the entire jungle is a sad place if you wanna build a base, because there is no proper space there it's all way too uneven, and those places that are flat usually have premades there (that we sadly cannot even dismantle).
Animal pens are fine depending on your location, close to a river feed some insects (because snails are everywhere) to them and get poop for fertilizer. Thats the most "drive by" way I care about them, they are surely not the main source of meat. But the poop is what I am after.

Armor, is strange. yes making bone armor is supereasy, Metal is still much better (also for most tools. this comes from the weight that most metal items have. having a full equipped bone armor and stone tools of all kind very harshly limits carry capacity. iron armor is a good way to drastically reduce that. However, yes its extra steps and vein proximity can make it a pain in the butt experience to crft them.

water collectors are strangely unbalancd too. i cna just throw a turtle shell on the ground and get good quantities of water. However I can just drink from the river if I have some orange mushrooms around. The collector? its an oddity with some weird purpose. Mostly comign from the issue that we can only collect and store a very small amount of water with it due to the lack of proper containers and sizes.
First during rain it should generate quite large quantities of water, second it should generate tiny amounts during night by dew gathering on it. so it would have a use for catching and gathering water for draught times. Why can we not build it like the mud water filter? A large container with the rain water catcher on top?
However, rainwater should be an own existing thing, And it should have a negative impact on nutrition as it is basically distilled water. So that the entire system for filtering water in a mud filter (including carrying dirty water over there) has at least some justified advantage.

arrows could use some duability too, to justify metal over other variants.

[LiL blade]

Originally posted by Grimmrog_SIG:

water collectors are strangely unbalancd too. i cna just throw a turtle shell on the ground and get good quantities of water. However I can just drink from the river if I have some orange mushrooms around. The collector? its an oddity with some weird purpose. Mostly comign from the issue that we can only collect and store a very small amount of water with it due to the lack of proper containers and sizes.
First during rain it should generate quite large quantities of water, second it should generate tiny amounts during night by dew gathering on it. so it would have a use for catching and gathering water for draught times. Why can we not build it like the mud water filter? A large container with the rain water catcher on top?
However, rainwater should be an own existing thing, And it should have a negative impact on nutrition as it is basically distilled water. So that the entire system for filtering water in a mud filter (including carrying dirty water over there) has at least some justified advantage.

but the water collectors do that, if you put a pot underneath the water collector, it will slowly fill up and if it rains it will fill up faster than if it was left on the ground