Who are the "good guys" now? Athens or Sparta?

[Praetor Invicta]

Sparta was a military slave state known for cruelty and Athens was a democratic trade empire known for art and philosophy. Yet it seems toned against Athens and pro sparta? Im really hoping this isnt the case because they already blew it by making Caesar a "bad guy" in the last game despite Caesar being a populist and hated by the patricians historically for favoring the pleabian class and moving to try to help the poor who were taken advantage of in the corrupt late republican period which was an oligarchy more then republic.

Also considering they had a african women kill caesar in a time and place where nobody of that description would be anywhere near is clear SJW catering. (women were not allowed in the senate). Its annoying to see a political agenda in a video game, especially when it historically does not make sense.

So... WTF are they doing this time around? Hopefully not another SJW catering fantasy... a historical based series should at least be semi historically accurate despite their current track record that makes Monty Pythons "Holy Grail" and "Life of Brian" look like historical documentaries.

Is Athens going to be a bad guy just for the sake of making sparta look good?

[Praetor Invicta]

Цитата допису erekose_handy:

Athens wasn't good. it was a Democracy that only 30% of free adult Males could vote in.It subjugated and opressed the states of the Delian league, owned more slaves per freeman than sparta did helots, and while its slaves in the city were treated well, the vast majority in the mines and plantations were treated far worse than helots.

Its political system was chaotic, almost mob rule at times. And its treatment of women was abhorrent. Athenian imperial expansion is the primary cause of the Peloponnesian war.

Meanwhile, Spartan citizens were arguably freer than Athenian ones. Helots, while they were serfs (not slaves) could, in time, become free, and even Spartan citizens. Its political process, while described as an oligarchy, was more of a constitutional monarchy, with an elected Cabinet with 1 year terms and accountability to the incoming cabinet,, a house of lords/eldars, and a lower house of all citizens.

Women were free, educated, and powerful. 45% of all land in Sparta was privately owned by a small clique of women, who acted as the economic engine, banking cartel, and a check on Spartan militarism.

Sparta wasn't good either, but when you get past its serfdom, its high degree of state ownership, and its focus on military prowess, they look more like us. Representative government, a constitution with separation of powers and review, solid civic rights for citizens. And this isn't a mistake, those who developed both Westminster and Continental systems had Sparta as a model.

It seems like you got a lot of your facts backwards...

Sparta was very cruel to its slaves and conqured peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helots

Athens however had slaves that had a certian amount of rights and could buy their way into freedom. As the article mentions, they would often be dressed the same as most citizens would and would be treated very fairly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece#Athenian_slaves

[Praetor Invicta]

I also want to point out two other things... Sparta was well known for numerous slave revolts... Athens... not so much so. Also I want to point out that as far as technological and cultural developments go, Athens was the more benificial to society.

So not only was Athens more fair to their slaves, but they also contributed a lot more in general in the long run.

[Sir Noob Wulf]

Цитата допису Praetor Americanus:

I also want to point out two other things... Sparta was well known for numerous slave revolts... Athens... not so much so. Also I want to point out that as far as technological and cultural developments go, Athens was the more benificial to society.

So not only was Athens more fair to their slaves, but they also contributed a lot more in general in the long run.

Yeah but the spartans have a cooler kick xD

[Benito Mozzarelli]

I'd say ♥♥♥♥ both of them. Athens, while a democracy, still went ahead and tried to basically create an empire. Sparta tried to stop this but they are when it comes down to it, still a bunch of pillaging invaders who came into Greece and started enslaving the local populace.

[Gronmor]

Pretty sure Sparta didn't "came into Greece"; they are already IN Greece! lol And, about slavery, Athens did the exact same thing.

And sure, maybe Sparta were mostly conquerors most of the time. However, for the Peloponnesian War specifically, it seems more like they were just protecting their allies from Athens.

[Aerandir]

https://www.y outube.com/watch?v=hz7ebSkY2_8&t=5s

https://www.y outube.com/watch?v=piAEzVOqHHU&t=1s

These two documentaries are great for anyone looking to learn more in preparation. Nice entertaining refresher course

[Benito Mozzarelli]

Цитата допису Gronmor:

Pretty sure Sparta didn't "came into Greece"; they are already IN Greece! lol And, about slavery, Athens did the exact same thing.

And sure, maybe Sparta were mostly conquerors most of the time. However, for the Peloponnesian War specifically, it seems more like they were just protecting their allies from Athens.

Spartans likely came from the north and pillaged/migrated their way into Greece. They always viewed themselves as outsiders which is why they put so much emphasis on being a military powerhouse. Ofcourse during the Peloponesian Wars they already lived in Greece for God knows how long so they became a staple of that area. The Helots were the original inhabitants of the area which they brutally surpressed. Athens wasn't the greatest either. Just hope I can raid the ♥♥♥♥ out of both of them and not be forced to pick a side and stick with it.

[Hayabusa]

Цитата допису Autismus Maximus:

Цитата допису Gronmor:

Pretty sure Sparta didn't "came into Greece"; they are already IN Greece! lol And, about slavery, Athens did the exact same thing.

And sure, maybe Sparta were mostly conquerors most of the time. However, for the Peloponnesian War specifically, it seems more like they were just protecting their allies from Athens.

Spartans likely came from the north and pillaged/migrated their way into Greece. They always viewed themselves as outsiders which is why they put so much emphasis on being a military powerhouse. Ofcourse during the Peloponesian Wars they already lived in Greece for God knows how long so they became a staple of that area. The Helots were the original inhabitants of the area which they brutally surpressed. Athens wasn't the greatest either. Just hope I can raid the ♥♥♥♥ out of both of them and not be forced to pick a side and stick with it.

Spartans were militaristic because of the numbers of slaves they held. It had nothing to do with the feeling of them being outsiders. In fact, Sparta was the most free society to women in the world, giving them lots of freedoms because men were usually in the military or gone with their army. The Spartans were outnumbered by their slaves 10 to 1. Which led to such a heavily militarized state. Also, Sparta was in the south. If you need a quick update on their rise and fall. heres a helpful video. https://youtu.be/YEmdlrpxfwc

[Benito Mozzarelli]

Цитата допису Hayabusae:

Цитата допису Autismus Maximus:

Spartans likely came from the north and pillaged/migrated their way into Greece. They always viewed themselves as outsiders which is why they put so much emphasis on being a military powerhouse. Ofcourse during the Peloponesian Wars they already lived in Greece for God knows how long so they became a staple of that area. The Helots were the original inhabitants of the area which they brutally surpressed. Athens wasn't the greatest either. Just hope I can raid the ♥♥♥♥ out of both of them and not be forced to pick a side and stick with it.

Spartans were militaristic because of the numbers of slaves they held. It had nothing to do with the feeling of them being outsiders. In fact, Sparta was the most free society to women in the world, giving them lots of freedoms because men were usually in the military or gone with their army. The Spartans were outnumbered by their slaves 10 to 1. Which led to such a heavily militarized state. Also, Sparta was in the south. If you need a quick update on their rise and fall. heres a helpful video. https://youtu.be/YEmdlrpxfwc

The Spartans were Greek, however they were not the same race as many other Greeks and they would have largely rejected the concept of Greece.

Spartans were Dorian, they came from the north at some point and settled in southern Greece, founding Sparta as we know it. Many other Greeks such as the Athenians were Ionians, not Dorian.

The concept of Greece was also largely scoffed by the Spartans. They were isolationists and hardly seemed to like aiding their fellow Greeks, even in a crisis such as the Greco-Persian War. Nevertheless they were known to fight alongside others. Events such as the battle of Thermopylae does show an aim to glorify Sparta though, rather than any desire to partake in the founding of a wider nation than their city-state.

They also definitely had a superiority complex (one that military wise was pretty well deserved for a long time) and saw themselves as the best, not on level with other ancient Greeks.

Should have specified a bit more but this piece of text explains it a lot better than I did. Also military was indeed for surpressing the Helots but seeing themselves as different to the rest of Greece definitely played a part.

[Hayden]

Цитата допису Aerandir:

https://www.y outube.com/watch?v=hz7ebSkY2_8&t=5s

https://www.y outube.com/watch?v=piAEzVOqHHU&t=1s

These two documentaries are great for anyone looking to learn more in preparation. Nice entertaining refresher course

Thanks for posting these. I love history but haven't read much stuff about Greek. Are those two doco's you posted good for an intro into Greek history? I'm totally going to devour as much Greek history as I can in the next few days before I get the game.