New to AC, help understanding fire damage, burn rate....fire stuffs etc?

[GangreneBob]

Hi thanks for tossing any help my way as I'm new to franchise as of the summer sale. I have been reading lots of info on forums on my topic but there's so many little pieces to put together, figure I'd make my own question about the fire "stuff". I want to use teh fire perks but maybe not an exclusive fire build, just heavy weighted in fire.

+fire damage is good anywhere, crank it up
+fire damage and buildup....good use it just on the sika?
+elemental buildup is good but not sure what it does exactly
+burn rate is good and this make fire damage hit faster?
+burning duration, yes longer but is it more priority over another perk?
weapon damage becomes fire damage is good?

Legendary perks don't stack, got it

So a bit confused I guess with what perks to use and not to use. I use the Hades bow and prometheus sika with weapon dmg becomes fire damage (but not sure if I should be? because I think I read it's a waste and use something else?)

Most times I'm using Achilles Spear with the weapon becomes fire damage or I'll switch it to Hades Bident with the same weapon to fire damage perk.

I pretty much have all +fire or +elemental on all my other gear (of course I do have the full health crit etc but I'm concentrating of fire stuff for this chat)

I'm not using the +50% burn rate but should I be?
I'm also using 3/3 in both flame attacks and mastery....cool?

Thank you for the read.

[TonyGun]

Fire has several properties and affects several mechanics in the game:

- The elemental damage, in which some targets have resistances and weaknesses (same with poison)

- The burning that appears when you fill up the fire build-up meter. The burning deals DoT, and this damage can be increased by your character's critical damage properties. I comparison, poison's DoT does not take critical damage into account.


- The elemental build-up is based on how many times you hit the person with the elemental attack. Civilians, light enemies like regular soldiers and archers takes less hits to build up their meters, while captain classes and elite versions of enemies takes more. Goes without saying, the tougher the enemy, the more hits are needed to build up. Elemental hits can be either melee, ranged, or environmental (your torch, lighting up a tent). Your character's elemental build-up, burn duration, and critical damage stats affect all fire damage you inflict (melee, ranged, environmental).

- +% Elemental Buildup perks reduces the number of hits required to fill the meter. For example, an enemy normally needs 4 hits to fill his meter. If you've added +100% elemental buildup, then you only need to hit him 2 times to fill his meter.

- In Odyssey, when you hit a target who has not yet detected you using ranged or environmental attack, the NPC does not immediately go into combat mode. He will first go into investigative mode, where his detection cone increases to look for approximately where the ranged attack is coming from. If he doesn't see you at first, he will then attempt to find cover. After a short period, he will leave from cover and go to his best guess at where you've fired your shot.

- On a side note, understanding this enemy behavior is how you can pull off the One-Two Punch, which is to shoot your bow at close range and then quickly use assassinate before the target can detect you. This is can be done regardless of build or play style, and is the go-to method to better guarantee a OSOK assassination if you often find your Assassin damage just short. You can use any bow abilities or buff up its damage with elemental or Cry of Ares. Doing it right takes practice, and also knowing how to control the assassination animations.

- Back on topic, if you manage to fill the target's fire meter without being detected, then you have stopped the target's detection ability, making him stuck under the investigation mode and blind, effectively prevented him from going into combat mode.

- The burn duration determines how long the target stays burning. The longer the duration, the longer the target is receiving damage from DoT. If the target was burning while you're undetected, he will stay blind for that duration. And because the enemy is blocked from going into combat mode, you are still under stealth and can perform stealth abilities and actions. Simply put, you can do ANYTHING to you target when he's burning.

- Essentially, fire burning on a unaware target disrupts his SSI. And through your equipment, you can control the effectiveness (Elemental Build-Up) the duration (Burn Duration), and the damage (Hunter / Fire / Critical Damage modifiers).

- Understanding this aspect of fire damage opens up an entirely new approach of stealth and combat in Odyssey, and is much closer to the way classic AC games played using what people often called Tools and Gadgets in the classic AC games. For example:

- Devastating shot adds %250 elemental build up

- Spreadshot at tier 3 launches 7 arrows = 700% elemental build-up if they all land on a single target. Spreadshot guarantees instant elemental buiildup on any target in the game. Any target.

- A high elemental build-up character combing fire with multi-shot = 8 targets instantly disabled.

- A high elemental build-up character combining fire Rain of Destruction = tight group of targets disabled with them over seeing you. Essentially, the classic AC smoke bomb.

- Explosive arrows deals a small AoE elemental build-up, which you can use to light up a target that other ranged attacks can't reach. For example a target is guarding a chest on the second floor or a building and is looking straight at the only entrance. Shoot explosive arrows near his feet, off a fall or celling to light him up.

Using these repertoire, you can perform the following strategies:

- Use a burning target as bait, as surrounding comrades will try to help him.

- Light up a Polemarch you can't assassinate, kill other solders who might get in your way, then come back to finish him off. The longer the pole march burns, the less Assassin damage is needed.

- You're only level 50 and you want to kill easily a level 99 Merc? Keep him burning.

- Ever wished you can use Hero Strike first and then gain that adrenaline back with a regular assassinate? Now you can.

- Control the amount of damage to easily recruit gold Leaders and Mercs.

Elemental build-up and burn duration ignores difficulty and levels. A light or regular soldier can be instantly lit up when you have about %200 buildup, which you can get as early as level 21. You also don't need to max Assassin damage if fire DoT can take care of the rest, allowing you invest in other things like Warrior damage or defense. The amount of elemental build-up and burn duration is entirely up to you: whether you want it for damage or for crowd control, whether you want to just disable single tough enemies or a large group.

There's a lot more, but I think it's better for yourselves to discover them than me writing a guide.

Some examples of fire elemental build and burn duration:

Simple test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPx5BC_TDBA

Sample gameplay:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNE_wShPMPo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9PQ_ZpVoHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwcDgS8DN-U

More advanced crowd control tactics, combining with other abilities:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG7Vw0MlbQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR67Cb6vHG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuDQHLrNxII

[GangreneBob]

Hey wow, thanks for that lengthy reply, lots of info to take in and will be checking it all out for sure. Quick glance has helped for sure so videos are next.

[TonyGun]

Good luck. I added an example of explosive arrows with rapid fire on a low level character with crappy gear, no fancy legendary engravings available:

https://youtu.be/vCBNJBsdPZc

As for the +50% burn rate engraving, it speeds up the DoT. On normal difficulty, the regular DoT will outright kill the weaker enemies in the game, if that's what you want to use fire for. I personally prefer not to quickly kill them for crowd manipulation reasons, and they're handy to get some adrenaline back by assassinations, YMMV.

[UbiCosmos]

Wow, what an incredibly detailed response TonyGun! Thanks for sharing such great information with OP!

[GatyKahn]

That's pretty darn nice post

[TonyGun]

Thanks guys

Sorry to take over this discussion, but I'm just having so much fun explosive arrows, Rapid Fire seems like it was designed to be used with it. Also to add: explosive arrows can be expensive, but you can switch over to poison arrows and hit something that's already on fire to cause explosions as well.

Since using it as well as other bow abilities here are some of my findings and I'll categorize them based their tactical attributes for non-Hunter players, although Hunter specialist can use them as well:


Spread Shot + fire
- Effective Range (ER): Short to Medium
- FS: Slow to Normal, need to charge for accuracy
- Requires direct line of sight (LoS)? Yes
- Targeting (T): Best at single target, somewhat effective at concentrated groups if they're inside narrow spaces like a cave or corridor
- Elemental Build-up Bonus (EB+): Highest in the game if all arrows hit
- Knockdown / Knockback (K) - Yes
- Adrenaline cost per encounter (APE): Fair - one shot instantly fills a target's meter, can use against multiple targets with a high EB build and the right scenario

Plus: best used to disable single tough targets like Mercs and Elites, as well as large targets like legendary creatures and bosses, and for builds that do not have high EB+ since it can fill any EB meter. It's the best close-range disabler in the game.

Minus: obviously, less effective at long range. Spends a lot of arrows. Also keep in mind of the knock back effect that move the target into a place or position you may or may not want them to be in. For instance, if you knock a target into a puddle or water, the burn duration gets canceled. Or knocking your target off a ledge and the body lands near his comrades, setting them off. Consider this when using this ability.

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Devastating Shot + fire
- ER: All Ranges
- FS: Normal
- LoS: Yes
- T: Single Target Only
- EB+: Second highest
- K: Yes
- APE: Fair: one shot can fill most target's meter, dependent on character's EB

Plus: Second best EB with the best damage at any range, the most versatile combo since you use it as a tool or as a weapon. Devasting Shot can elemental effects can be used at Tier 1

Minus: Requires some EB in your build to be effective at disabling. And the normal firing speed is often not fast enough to shoot multiple times before the target IDing you, even with Sixth Sense. Like Spread Shot, you need to consider its knock back effect.

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Rain of Destruction + fire
- ER: Short to Medium
- FS: Normal
- LoS: No
- T: AoE Radius
- EB+: None
- K: Stagger Only
- APE: Fair to Good. The more targets you hit, the more value you get out of RoD
- Special Properties: Infinite Vertical Targeting - you can targets 1,000,000,000m above or below from you.

Plus: Can light up concentration of enemies without giving away your position or use cover. Very good at manipulating a large group. Can stop enemies from advancing to your position. it functions exactly as a smoke bomb but with damage added.

Minus: Disabled when indoors. Has a cooldown interval. Spends a lot of arrows.

----

Multi Shot + fire
- ER: All Ranges
- FS: Normal to Fast
- LoS: Yes
- AoE: Multiple targets, auto aiming
- EB+: None
- K: None
- APE: Fair to Excellent. The more targets you hit, the more value you get out of MS

Plus: It's multi-auto-aim! It's like Phantom Blades + Sleeping Darts and then put it on steroids. Very effective during Sixth Sense moments.

Minus: All targets must be in line of sight. Sometimes targets can behind an obstacle or another target / NPC during the moment of firing, therefore you must pay attention to positioning. Very effective against normal enemies, but cannot instantly light up tougher enemies unless you're a dedicated EB build.

----

Predator Shot + fire
- ER: Long to Very Long
- FS: Slow
- LoS: Yes at close range, no at long range
- AoE: Single Target Only
- EB+: None
- K: None
- APE: Bad to Fair. Requires high EB or multiple shots (and therefore more adrenaline) to be effective against tougher enemies.

Plus: Does not need to be in line of sight

Minus: Well, Predator Shot is a very specialized ability whose main purpose is to snipe and kill. Therefore, its elemental build up, tactically, is the weakest of all the bow abilities. However there are very specific scenarios where Predator Shot + fire build-up can work very well, like preventing a Polemarch from lighting up the brazier when you're far away.

----

Ghost Arrows + fire
- ER: Any
- FS: Normal
- LoS: No
- AoE: Single Target Only
- EB+: None
- K: None
- APE: Bad to Fair. Requires high EB or multiple shots (and therefore more adrenaline) to be effective against tougher enemies.


Plus: can light up a single target anywhere ala wall hax, something even RoD can't do. Also effective as a distraction by hitting environmental objects (ie, red jars next to sleeping guards) without being detected.

Minus: Heavy cost of adrenaline. Tactically, it should be used to light up a single target in order use him as a decoy / distraction and come around to light up his nearby comrades. Similar to Ghost Arrows in that its main purpose is killing, but a bit more versatile.

----

Rapid Fire + fire
- ER: Medium to Long
- FS: Fast to Very Fast
- LoS: Yes
- AoE: Single Target, Multiple Targets Possible
- EB+: None
- K: None
- APE: Good to Excellent. Each shot only spends a fraction of an adrenaline bar. Archery Master refills it in time.

Plus: its excellent adrenaline cost, accuracy, and high fire rate makes it one of the best elemental buildup at ranged distances. Even a build with moderate EB can make it work well.

Minus: not very good at close range stealth EB tactics due to the way SSI detection speed increases the closer you are to the target. Must have line of sight and must fire multiple shots against tougher enemies, therefore you must be fairly experienced with stealth gameplay. Spends a lot of arrows.


---

Using explosive arrows changes some of these abilities' short-comings, with the one notable disadvantage of can't use it at close range unless you like to commit suicide, the other being that explosive arrows are expensive when you're low level.

If you look at the whole thing, this is a well-thought out and calculated system in Odyssey. Each tactics have their strengths and weaknesses, and not just me finding an exploit or a trick that works some of the time. Fire elemental is meant to be played this way, if you wanted to of course.

So yeah, I'm just gushing over Rapid Fire right now because I didn't think of using it until I posted here. It was only in theory at first, but now I'm all on board with this ability now.

Lastly, some rapid fire fun:

https://youtu.be/sKUp_weT0EU

https://youtu.be/NTRsCt9eKcE

[GangreneBob]

No need to apologize, your info is very welcomed this reader/poster anyway. I appreciate you sharing your findings. I have used it to shape a few things for sure.

[hantz101]

Ignoring all other armor, I've been using the Agamemnon set since I collected it all, it gives you a significant burn duration. Add a couple of engraved armor bits & weapons, and you can easily get 15-20secs of burn. If it doesn't kill them completely, they're severely weakened, allowing you an easy kill. Exit their line of sight (distance or around a corner), and they'll stop chasing you, just dance and burn.

In conquest battles, I just run around the field, slash them 2-3 times until they light up, and keep moving. The flames do the rest, you leave a trail of dead bodies behind you. By the time a boss or mercenary confronts you, your adrenaline bar is full or close to it.

Another fave tactic is to get to the roof of a fort, then use Rain of Destruction on small groups. They have no idea where the volleys are coming from, and usually all run back to the same spot in confusion, sometimes bringing their comrades who were previously out of range. Create a killing zone, repeat until arrows or enemies are depleted.

Still having trouble with those Legendary Animal pelts tho