Confused about german campaign

[Adler]

So i started grand campaign and in first battle i was on attacking side, i captured first obj but then game ended for some reason even tho i still had bunch of time. I attacked again and captured 1 more obj with 3 more left, i did huge damage to the enemy, they lost tons of people and i would easly win this but again game ended (wtf?) i got only 1 obj more. Then i attacked again and i took heavy casualty and enemy got 1 obj from me (even tho they did not capture it in the battle) and game ended again. There was still bunch of time left. Then i could only end battle, no more attacks. It moved me to next mission and said i won or something.

What is going on?

[SteveM@Matrix]

Close Combat has a concept of 'force morale' or force cohesion that is used to simulate the implications of a force that takes heavy losses (typically) doesn't fight to the last man. Once one side begins to retreat the significant fighting is usually over and the superior side will capture the objective they had their sights set on and the active fighting will die down. So in CC the battle ends and the superior side gets an extra objective from the side that suffered a morale break.

See page 83 of the game manual for more details. You can turn force morale off in the scenario settings on the command screen if you'd prefer to fight to the last man / victory location.

[Adler]

Still don't understand why player is punished for doing good. If someone doing really great job, enemy is losing morale and men, you are easly pushing them back and you would capture entire map but game ends and you cant do anything. If enemy is falling back you should be able to simply chase them and campture abbandoned objectives.

Also why did i still win? You only get 3 chances to take the map and if you do it or not it will still send you to next mission?

[SteveM@Matrix]

Operations end when time expires or all maps are captured. If time runs out and the Operation ends you can still win the Operation without completely destroying your opponent. Victory conditions are a combination of ground and victory locations controlled and relative losses.

Force morale is a game mechanic that simulates the bigger picture. Each side has some reserves (you typically can't field your entire force and there is a higher headquarters such as battalion / regiment / division with reserves too) so even if you've defeated the enemy currently on the battle field that doesn't mean that there are no enemy troops anywhere nearby. CC simulates these new forces coming into play by ending the current battle and then starting a new one. If you'd rather not have force morale on, you can turn it off, as I mentioned previously.

[xe5]

The debate about Force Morale in Close Combat is over 20 years old. If you dont like it, in the Settings tab > Battle End conditions > uncheck Low Cohesion.

The design theory behind Force Morale is that if the other side withdraws due to loss of morale/cohesion, your guys will advance and capture 1-3 victory locations depending on the loss ratio between sides. This represents your winning momentum before your guys take a breather. Combat is exhausting.

As to "only 3 chances to take the map" - no, there are 9 hours in the First Blood operation. So potentially there are 9 turns. The interval between battles, chosen by the side with the initiative, determines how many turns actually get played. Those interval choices are:
1 hour = Hasty attack
5 hours = Prepared attack
x hours = Night attack (available if the operation length is more than one day)
X hours = Dawn attack (with rest and reinforcements (available if the operation length is more than one day)

As to being awarded victory even though you didnt capture the map - victory doesnt require capturing the entire map, only more victory locations than the enemy.

All of which is explained in the game manual.

[Faestre]

It's a rather dumb mechanic that the newer games have unfortunately been built around. Proof that there really are people on the internet who will defend absolutely anything.

The AI has a bad habit of getting its troops massacred, so they added a mechanic where when its troops became too demoralized it gets to force you into a stalemate. This creates an artificial layer of difficulty by encouraging the player to suicidally rush their troops into objectives instead of methodically dismantling the enemy, and delay attacks on critical locations if said attack risks doing too much harm to the enemy. This less efficient playstyle makes the AI seem more effective, since actually improving it (It -is- one of the better AIs in gaming today) would be much harder to do.

As others have said, you can thankfully still disable this artificial handicap in settings. Unfortunately the game is balanced around it, and you'll likely find that many of the maps where you are supposed to be 'harassed' by a smaller force are trivially easy when said force can't force your troops into a pity-truce.

[xe5]

Spoken like a guy who never cut his little brother a break when playing games.

CC1 was built around a version of force morale. So your bit about the "newer versions" doing so is off the mark.

And it doesnt impose a "stalemate" or "pity truce". It imposes an automatic victory including an extra VL to account for the winning side's momentum.

Rather than encouraging suicidal rushes, force morale actually encourages more methodical play so as to maximize territory gains before FM kicks in.

As for being unrealistic - playing without force morale, making the AI fight to the last man, is the equivalent of enforcing a do not retreat order. That didnt happen at the tactical level even when Hitler issued similar orders. Tactical realism for the side that was losing would include breaking contact, regrouping and reinforcing, then continuing the battle.

Looking forward to your next rant about the game timer being dumb, artificial and unrealistic.

[Demolaye]

Originally posted by Faestre:

It's a rather dumb mechanic that the newer games have unfortunately been built around. Proof that there really are people on the internet who will defend absolutely anything.

The AI has a bad habit of getting its troops massacred, so they added a mechanic where when its troops became too demoralized it gets to force you into a stalemate. This creates an artificial layer of difficulty by encouraging the player to suicidally rush their troops into objectives instead of methodically dismantling the enemy, and delay attacks on critical locations if said attack risks doing too much harm to the enemy. This less efficient playstyle makes the AI seem more effective, since actually improving it (It -is- one of the better AIs in gaming today) would be much harder to do.

As others have said, you can thankfully still disable this artificial handicap in settings. Unfortunately the game is balanced around it, and you'll likely find that many of the maps where you are supposed to be 'harassed' by a smaller force are trivially easy when said force can't force your troops into a pity-truce.

The "newer games"?
Looks like we have someone running their mouth who has not done there homework; let me explain...
I'v played all 13 commercial releases of CC since 1996 (except "CC: First to Fight" which was a bait and switch FPS game); as stated by @xe5 there has been some form of morale break in every CC ever released. Some games made it too easy to get truces but most versions have had a pretty fair method of enforcing this real world consideration. The current game and and the last 3 made in the 2010's on what would essentially be termed the "CC6 engine" all had this put together fairly well; where the operational levels of AI moves would be affected by morale, supplies, fuel, and support fire (air or arty cover for an operational move).
So, this was not something thrown in willy-nilly it was developed over several engines and game versions. If you didn't notice you either were not paying attention or perhaps are exaggerating you actual experience with the series.


Why is it "a dumb mechanic"?
What would be both unfair and unrealistic would be having each and every AI commander fight to the death on each map / objective - - unless you're playing some French Foreign Legion modded scenarios from the 1800's it ain't gonna happen... In WW2 not even the Waffen SS fought to the last man in every battle. On the other side it would be hard to say that any allied force fought that way other than ...maybe... the Soviets in '42 (as they often cut and run in '41) but even they soon got tired of that BS.

Please explain why morale mechanics are unrealistic, give examples, I'd be happy to know your reasoning.

[Magnus Aurelius, Bright Lord]

I enjoy thoroughly the CC games and have played them myself since the very first one but just yesterday I was playing CC5 as the german in the grand campaign, and the Americans were unloading on the beach. I had a division of 6 or 7 units with me, all disheartened and low moral. The Americans had tanks, and full moral and strenght.

I defeated them by constantly rushing all my units on the beach which forced a low moral end of game. Making ME the victor ( because I had more flags) and being to continuously defend that beach by mass suicide.

Pretty unrealistic if you ask me. In reality, the Americans would have not even been able to retreat from the beach (and why would they want to anyway, they were massacring us) and would have been force to kill all my soldiers, which would have then open the door to them to further advance.

[arabbigwet69]

there is a german campaign?

[xe5]

As is, you can play the Axis thru the full campaign but the game wont track a single Axis unit throughout like it does for the US campaign. However, this can be easily edited in the \Close Combat The Bloody First\Campaigns\MAIN\DATA\CAMPAIGNS and C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG Galaxy\Games\Close Combat The Bloody First\Campaigns\MAIN\DATA\OPERATIONS text files. Simply replace whatever the value is for the Axis main force with the value for the Axis main force you'd like to be tracked.

eg. starting with the Longstop Hill.txt operation file
...
1942 12 23 9 0 0
1942 12 23 18 0 0
0
31
0 1 2 3 4 5 8 11
0 1 2 3 4 6 7 9 10 12 13
...
replace the value 31 (Panzergrenadierkompanie 42) with your choice of Axis main force unit.

These are:
...
15 Schützenkompanie 42
16 Feldkompanie Tunis A
17 Feldkompanie Tunis B
18 Feldkompanie Tunis C
19 Marschkompanie Afrika A
20 Marschkompanie Afrika B
21 Marschkompanie Afrika C
22 Grenadierkompanie 44
23 Radfahr-Schützenkompanie 42
24 Fusilierkompanie 44
25 Gebirgsjägerkompanie 42
26 Fallschirmjägerkompanie 42A
27 Fallschirmjägerkompanie 42B
28 Fallschirmjägerkompanie 43
29 Fallschirmjägerkompanie 44
30 Panzergrenadierkompanie (gp) 42
31 Panzergrenadierkompanie 42
32 Panzergrenadierkompanie (gp) DAK
33 Panzergrenadierkompanie DAK
34 Panzergrenadierkompanie (gp) 43
35 Panzergrenadierkompanie 43
36 HG Panzergrenadierkompanie (gp)
37 HG Panzergrenadierkompanie
38 Panzergrenadierkompanie (gp) 44
39 Panzergrenadierkompanie 44
40 Kraftradschützenkompanie 42
41 Panzeraufklärungskompanie (gp) 42
42 Panzeraufklärungskompanie 44
43 Panzeraufklärungskompanie (gp) 44
44 Pionierkompanie 42
45 Pionierkompanie 44
46 SS Panzergrenadierkompanie 44
47 unused
48 unused
49 Compagnia Fanteria AS41
50 Compagnia Fanteria AS42
51 Compagnia Fanteria 'Superga'
52 Compagnia Bersaglieri AS41
53 Compagnia Bersaglieri AS42
54 Compagnia Costiero
...

Note - if you'd like the Axis main force unit in an Axis campaign to re-equip itself according to a new TO&E (Panzergrenadierkompanie 42 -> 43), you'll have to do further editing to column H in the \Close Combat The Bloody First\Data\Base\Units\scnunits.txt file to mirror the way US Rifle Companies progress from their '42 to '43 to '44 versions.

So not only is a German campaign that tracks a single main force company possible, but one that tracks a single Italian company as well. With a little more text editing according to the TBF Workbook, https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1254, you can customize main forces to contain the sub-units you want.