About the removal of diagonal movement.

[Lunático]

When I downloaded the free demo I noticed that compared to DoomRL this game is restricted to 4 directions, so I ended up asking about it on the Discord and according to Kornel this was done for accessibly, both to accommodate gamepads, laptops and I assume also people not used to roguelikes.

As he put it on the Jupiter Hell channel of the server:
"I've had several people send me bug reports of inaccessible levels in DoomRL, turned out that they never noticed there is diagonal movement."

"[...] Honestly, I would rather have them, but needed to part with them for the greater good -_-"
"It was hard to come up with a sensible dodge system without them."

While I don't think this is a deal breaker all things considered, I also think it's worth asking other players what they think, since the question of accessibility gets tossed around fairly often these days, and Discord is not really suited for this conversation.

How would I resolve the issue? hell if I know, I'm not a clever man and game design questions are a bit above my pay grade, but I do think it hurts the end product to go ham on it, playing a roguelike without diagonal movement feels a bit wrong, and if I have to be honest I don't like the idea of accommodating people who can't figure out how to move in 8 directions.

So what do you think? is this a good thing in the long run since more people means more funding and thus more going into development? or are changes like this risking to water down the experience in the search of a broader audience?

TL;DR: ME NO LIKE CHANGE REEE

[PsyBlade]

Back when DoomRL was still being developed I played it with a 360 gamepad. My solution to the diagonals were "step" buttons. Basically you held the R-stick in whatever direction you wanted and then pressed A to take single step in that direction. Or B to run in that direction. Without a direction held A and B acted as the usual OK and cancel buttons.

Worked well enough imho even without a way to highlight the chosen direction.

EDIT: I too would have preferred keeping diagonals

[&rew]

For what it's worth, I'm probably the target demographic for these accessibility options. There's nothing inherently unappealing to me about traditional roguelikes compared to their modern hybrid brethren, but moving one tile per turn can be tedious on a keyboard. I really just wanted to play with a controller. Tangledeep has the exact solution to diagonals that you mentioned, PsyBlade, and I found it to be sub par. It's just not intuitive. I'm looking forward to trying Jupiter Hell, and a dodge system sounds like it might be just the solution I was looking for.

Also, it doesn't hurt that Jupiter Hell's got some good-looking animation in it, which is another thing most traditional roguelikes lack, so this one ought to be easier on the eyes.

[__m__Yn_F_onY__d]

I'm not a fan of the four-directional input. The quoted argument for the limitation does sound rather silly--do your best to communicate something and people still may overlook it. With the tutorial level in Jupiter Hell, the player could have even been forced to go through the movement. Keyboards without a dedicated keypad could have reasonable defaults set elsewhere, and with key rebinding the player can adjust as desired. Gamepads with limited distinct inputs I see being the most difficult to support, but you guys using those for a traditional roguelike are weird anyway. =P

That said, it's fine.

[bpais008]

Originally posted by Lunático:

and if I have to be honest I don't like the idea of accommodating people who can't figure out how to move in 8 directions.

Sacrificing game dynamics to accommodate stupid people ends up making a game that could have been great, but was compromised for the perception that doing so would lead to bigger profits. In this case, it wont though. Roguelikes take some degree of intelligence to be good at, and if a person is so sub-par intellectually that they cannot figure out how to move on diagonals, this wont be the game for them, and they will rage out and quit, and leave a bad review, soon after buying it regardless of the appeasement given to them.

So what do you think? is this a good thing in the long run since more people means more funding and thus more going into development? or are changes like this risking to water down the experience in the search of a broader audience?

Game wont last long; will probably be abandoned mid-way through development. Have been looking forward to it after playing DoomRL a lot recently. But if the dev is willing to compromise such a basic, foundational dynamic such as diagonal movement, money is on their mind, not a great game (unfortunately he'll end up with neither, most likely). It wont stop at movement, either. Any other future perceived "accessibility" problem will be met with blunting of other game dynamics.

Ill wait and see the reviews I guess to see if its something I might be interested in regardless, but meh... what else was compromised behind the scenes to make the game more "accessible"?

[&rew]

Originally posted by bpais008:

Originally posted by Lunático:

and if I have to be honest I don't like the idea of accommodating people who can't figure out how to move in 8 directions.

Roguelikes take some degree of intelligence to be good at, and if a person is so sub-par intellectually that they cannot figure out how to move on diagonals, this wont be the game for them, and they will rage out and quit, and leave a bad review, soon after buying it regardless of the appeasement given to them.

They're not removing diagonals because people won't be able to figure out how to do them; it's that it's awkward to control on a D-pad or without a numpad (like many modern laptops lack). When it's awkward to control, it's much easier to decide to just stop playing, or to not buy the game. Of course, you probably figured this all out, because you're so intelligent and all...

[Quake'r Oats]

Getting angry over the lack of diagonal movement seems ridiculous. The game is designed with that in mind, it's not like they're removing mechanics from the game after development. I do enjoy this notion that people are going to come in and lose their ♥♥♥♥ because they can't move diagonal. I also love the notion that RL players are portrayed as generally sophisticated gamers that wouldn't dare touch a game controller. Excuse me while I twist my 'stache while wearing my top-hat and monocle.

[Mytheos]

Originally posted by gamelord:

Originally posted by bpais008:

Roguelikes take some degree of intelligence to be good at, and if a person is so sub-par intellectually that they cannot figure out how to move on diagonals, this wont be the game for them, and they will rage out and quit, and leave a bad review, soon after buying it regardless of the appeasement given to them.

They're not removing diagonals because people won't be able to figure out how to do them; it's that it's awkward to control on a D-pad or without a numpad (like many modern laptops lack). When it's awkward to control, it's much easier to decide to just stop playing, or to not buy the game. Of course, you probably figured this all out, because you're so intelligent and all...

Based on the OP people not knowing there were diagonals was a listed reason for them being removed.

Making your primary controls or game design worse to make a secondary control setup better is a bad idea...especially when you can simply rebind keys instead and the whole problem is solved.

So far as people not knowing, force a short tutorial and make them use diagonal to get through it if the dev is that worried about it.


But when you make a game like this, it isnt ever going to be mass market, so either make it well for the people that its being made for, or you end up ruining it to please more people that are going to just leave a bad review anyways because the game should be "live action and not all this jerky pause stuff".

Blows my mind how many devs make a game bad to make it "accessible" to people that wouldnt play it so they play it for 3 hours and leave a bad review and people that would have enjoyed it and played it for 80 hours play it for 25 and leave a bad review.

[&rew]

Originally posted by Mytheos:

Originally posted by gamelord:

They're not removing diagonals because people won't be able to figure out how to do them; it's that it's awkward to control on a D-pad or without a numpad (like many modern laptops lack). When it's awkward to control, it's much easier to decide to just stop playing, or to not buy the game. Of course, you probably figured this all out, because you're so intelligent and all...

Based on the OP people not knowing there were diagonals was a listed reason for them being removed.

Making your primary controls or game design worse to make a secondary control setup better is a bad idea...especially when you can simply rebind keys instead and the whole problem is solved.

So far as people not knowing, force a short tutorial and make them use diagonal to get through it if the dev is that worried about it.


But when you make a game like this, it isnt ever going to be mass market, so either make it well for the people that its being made for, or you end up ruining it to please more people that are going to just leave a bad review anyways because the game should be "live action and not all this jerky pause stuff".

Blows my mind how many devs make a game bad to make it "accessible" to people that wouldnt play it so they play it for 3 hours and leave a bad review and people that would have enjoyed it and played it for 80 hours play it for 25 and leave a bad review.

This is hysterical. As though the ability to move diagonally is the determining factor as to whether or not the game is good. I ought to let XCOM, Advance Wars, and Into the Breach know that their games aren't good anymore, because we just found out about diagonals.

What if...and this might sound crazy...the game is designed around the fact that there aren't diagonals? And that it can be every bit as good or deep as a game that does have diagonals, but it's just a design choice?

[Epyon]

Originally posted by Mytheos:

Based on the OP people not knowing there were diagonals was a listed reason for them being removed.

The fact that people didn't know about diagonals was a minor factor. The major factor was that any control scheme with 8 directions on a PC without a numpad or on a controller is completely offputting to newcomers, and doesn't allow for the speedy play that JH is designed for.

Making your primary controls or game design worse to make a secondary control setup better is a bad idea...especially when you can simply rebind keys instead and the whole problem is solved.

But when you make a game like this, it isnt ever going to be mass market, so either make it well for the people that its being made for, or you end up ruining it to please more people that are going to just leave a bad review anyways because the game should be "live action and not all this jerky pause stuff".

Let me rephrase something:

Making your primary controls or game design worse to not require a full page of keybindings is a bad idea...especially when you can simply print and read the keybinds manual instead and the whole problem is solved.
But when you make a game like this, it isnt ever going to be played by anyone else than hardcore roguelike players, so either make it well for the people that its being made for, or you end up ruining it to please more people that are going to just consider it ♥♥♥♥ because the game should be "a deep RPG turn-based game".
DoomRL will never get anywhere.

This is basically what some of the initial roguelike players thought of DoomRL when it was released in the times when mostly linux users knew turn-based roguelikes. I'm glad I didn't listen to them.

As for going mass market, there's already a lot of interest bringing this to Switch and other consoles, where the controller is the only control, not "secondary".

[Quake'r Oats]

DoomRL's streamlined controls was such a huge strength for it; less is more. Forcing more controls in a manner to satisfy some arcane god of Ascii is ridiculous. Making more convoluted controls because, "that's how RL's are done" just stunts growth of a genre.

[CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate]

Originally posted by epyon:

The fact that people didn't know about diagonals was a minor factor. The major factor was that any control scheme with 8 directions on a PC without a numpad or on a controller is completely offputting to newcomers, and doesn't allow for the speedy play that JH is designed for.

One possible solution to the diagonals issue on controllers is you could do what Chocobo Dungeon did in it's games. There was a modifier key to enable diagonal only movement. Then you just held that key to move diagonally.

[__m__Yn_F_onY__d]

Originally posted by CPT Chthonbeard the Pirate:

One possible solution to the diagonals issue on controllers is you could do what Chocobo Dungeon did in it's games.

That doesn't seem to solve the 'offputting' or 'doesn't allow for the speedy play' issues. With thoughts of moving to consoles, of course the 4-directional movement makes sense. It's just a bit awkward to move across lengthy diagonals, but this way it's equally awkward regardless of input device.

[TZO]

To me it, it seems like the lack of diagonal movement has made getting into cover a slight bit trickier, especially in door ways. I'd be using cover more if ive got low health.
I'm guessing dodge also is supposed to make up for this?

[__m__Yn_F_onY__d]

DoomRL has a dodge system too.

[Pangolin Legends: Arceus]

There are plenty of roguelikes without diagonal movement and often the ones without it are the ones whose designers really thought hard about balance, game mechanics etc.

The major issue is that really it should take longer to travel diagonally than NSEW because you are travelling farther.