Transmutation is poorly designed and spoils an otherwise fantastic game

[Ghostlight]

We said it in the beta. Nothing changed. Shame. it's crap and ruins the game a bit.

That's all I have to say on it.

[iregame]

We are looking for some solution for the transmutation. Hope to share some thoughts with you guys later.

[Ghostlight]

Fantastic. Thanks for that.

[windezz]

Depending on your minions, the new purple parts via Transmutation is a massive nerf from how they functioned in EA.

There wasn't RNG involved in transmuting from white to purple, so you knew exactly how many parts you'd need to get it. From then on it was RNG to reroll 3 purples (still 100% chance) to 1 with different stats that you might want. So the "waste" was relatively less than the current model.

And it wasn't uncommon to roll a purple part with +1 to block and ward, which when converted to stat point costs, can be anywhere from 14 (1st tier for Banshee) to a whooping 42! (3rd tier for Lich).

But obviously the upside is that not all minions have equal stat point costs, so using Banshee for example again - raising its attack 3 times would cost 12 points for 18 extra attack damage. So a purple part is a significant upgrade in terms of point efficiency, except not many builds take advantage of a HP damage Banshee. A Lich, on the other hand, takes 13 points to raise its attack 4 times, for 8 damage total. The data is pulled from the unitStatUpgrades file, so the values are subject to change.

I think in order to make Transmutation equal or more attractive than trying to farm exp via exp books, it's necessary to raise the chance of successful Transmutation upgrades, or bring back some of the random stats so that they have high reward associated with the current high cost.

[iregame]

Guys dont forget - the real replacement for "old" transmutation is the whole stat point system. But as I said, we understand the arguments and are looking for some solution now.

[windezz]

Oh I didn't mean to suggest that the stat point system on the whole is bad design, I actually think that is a step toward the right direction. You and/or players can easily mod the stat point system to their liking. It removes the RNG aspect of rolling for a part with desired stats, and puts more control in the hands of players who are willing to tweak the system as they like.

There's nothing stopping me from changing the stat point for, say, Banshee, to have 10 tiers of +6 stress damage at 1 point cost each, this is not as easily done with the "old" Transmutation. So on a modding perspective, the new system is a significant boon, although not directly attributed to the Transmutation RNG.

[HellSlayer]

They do need to revamp. Probably unique item that you can put on minions should give 10% legendary item to get.

[windezz]

Maybe unique parts that may drop from elites and bosses which can give both stat points and special bonus.

[HellSlayer]

If the question about balance then devs - dont worry, game is difficult as is. Make some buffs :)

[ArcticCheetah]

I like the new stats system better than the old combine parts into higher rarity with random stats, because the old system was a double edged sword; you could upgrade your troops to legendary, but then you barely have any parts left to continue if you lost troops.

The new system and the generous parts economy is much better, I no longer feel pressured to get better parts because transmutation does a poor job at accomplishing that. I perfectly happy just using what parts RNG gives me. While it sucks that transmutation feels pointless in its current form, hopefully the devs will find a positive solution.

[windezz]

Originally posted by ArcticCheetah:

II no longer feel pressured to get better parts because transmutation does a poor job at accomplishing that.

Somehow, I don't think that's the kind of praise a dev team should look forward to receive.

[Ghostlight]

OK while we're here, the actual chance for an Uncommon or better parts to drop must be pitiful.

Even with all the talents in Alchemy that increase that chance and get more parts, and maxing Excavation asap to get more parts, and also even using the Iratus item that increases the chance even further, I think I saw about 40 non-grey parts drop in total in a full run, and at least 20 of those were green. Given a full run is about 100 battles and 4 parts drop on average, that's 40 out of 400 parts. Much too low chance I think, seems a complete waste of talent points and item slots.

p.s. I do agree that the move to stat points was a huge step in the right direction, but these low low occurances of non-grey parts either from Transmutation or straight drops really spoil it.

[Rilgar55]

Originally posted by Ghostlight:

OK while we're here, the actual chance for an Uncommon or better part to drop must be pitiful.

Even with all the talents in Alchemy that increase that chance, and maxing Excavation asap, and also using the Iratus item that increase the chance even further, I think I saw about 30 non-grey parts drop in total in a full run, and at least 15 of those were green. Much too low chance I think, seems a complete waste of talent points and item slots.

The alchemi tree was never that useful, not even after the buffs.

[Ghostlight]

Heh I revisited my save and revised the numbers.

[fogandsteel]

The level of Iratus has great importance. You have to wait till it is high enough to do transmutation.

At level 2 the chances to get common, uncommon, rare, or legendary part from 3 common parts are 98.1%, 1%, 0.6%, 0.3% respectively.

At level 28 they become 71.6%, 14.2%, 9.5%, 4.7%.

At level 63 they become 59.6%, 20.2%, 13.5%, 6.7%.

Right now I am in the middle of level 3 (Mercenary Barracks). 50 battles total. Iratus is at level 63. I have 96 common parts, 15 uncommon, and 5 rare parts available in the laboratory.

Additionally, I have used 11 uncommon, 3 rare, and 3 legendary parts for my minions.
I haven't used transmutation yet. All the part are from drops/excavations. My plan is to try transmutation at the very start of level 4. (Or perhaps wait till the start of level 5.)

Some additional numbers at level 63:

If you use 2 common parts and 1 uncommon part, the percentages become 29.8%, 42.6%, 18.5%, 9.2% to get common, uncommon, rare, or legendary part respectively.

If you use 1 common parts and 2 uncommon part, the percentages become 0%, 67.5%, 21.7%, 10.8%.

Paradoxically, if you use 3 uncommon parts, the percentages become worse: 0%, 72.3%, 18.5%, 9.2%.

If you use 1 common part, 1 uncommon, and 1 rare, the percentages become 0%, 25.9%, 58%, 16.1%.

If you use 2 rare parts and 1 common or uncommon part (there is no difference which one you use), the percentages become 0%, 0%, 83.9%, 16.1%.

Using 3 rare parts again gives a worse result than you would expect: 0%, 0%, 87.2%, 12.8%.

With expectation that the percentages will become better as level of Iratus increases further, between levels 4 and 5 you should have just about enough legendary parts from transmutation and drops for 1 4-minion squad.

Edit: I am playing at "More pain" difficulty.

[Ghostlight]

Originally posted by fognsteel:

With expectation that the percentages will become better as level of Iratus increases further, between levels 4 and 5 you should have just about enough legendary parts from transmutation and drops for 1 4-minion squad.

Edit: I am playing at "More pain" difficulty.

Here's the rub...the game should not be balanced round More Pain.

On higher difficulties you would not be on level 63 where you are, you'd be much lower. You get less experience from the Exp building on GAW difficulty and less again on EH. You get less of everything. Less free healing, less Mana, less Wrath less Diggers Souls. Lower chances at artifacts. Less XP from fights as well.

It will come as shock to the system when you are used to More Pain throwing more of everything than you'll ever need at you. High difficulties don't do that and everything is scarcer.

Additionally, more Minions will die so you will lose more good parts.

Finally, you cannot do high difficulties with a single team. There's too much damage thrown around and you'll have Minions in the Mortuary healing all the time because Distillation will be too expensive due to far less parts coming in. This means you might need 2 of each Minion in the main team to cover for injuries. In addition, depending on build you will likely need a complete 2nd team specialised for certain bosses as well as certain key "on the bench" Minions that you bring in for very specific match-ups. (E.g. Don't field a stress Lich against a Paladin).

Either way, Transmutation is not up to scratch for difficulties beyond MP.

I think it should work as follows:

Transmuting 3 greys -> chance for result to be grey should be ZERO
Transmuting 3 greens -> chance for result to be green or less should be ZERO
Transmuting 3 blues -> chance for result to be purple should be 100%

Thus you need to transmute at most 27 greys in total to get a purple. That would be balanced, at least for EH difficulties where parts are much more scarce and you have other aspects of the game using them up as well like replacement and extra Minions, Distillation, Calcination, plus higher Minion death rate.