worst rating system I have ever seen...

[fsim70]

The programmer who is responsible for the SA should be fired immediately.
I saw his explanation on YouTube, and its total nonsense. Too lazy to program the code properly, just it.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by PLAYLIFE:

Originally posted by fsim70:

I'm not a novice, I'm 54 years old and I've driven almost everything with wheels, except a tank.
The minus points - when someone crasch into you (without brake check or similar)....
It's really not that difficult to program it, just enter plus or minus of the average speed at a given point or turn for a given class, and if someone goes to crasch into your ass, only he should get punished.
This is especially annoying in online racing...a few idiots who hit you after the start in the first corner, and you get the SA downgraded...

Its the same in iRacing as well. You welcome to make a better system with better logic. But there is also your failure to understand the logic of the safety rating. Safer drivers on average will have a better rating. Thats it. There is no end goal to have 99% rating - its meaningless on its own. Better drivers have less incidents and better rating. Also, tell me how are you going to handle trolls in online lobbies, who wait with a slow car and then turn in front of leaders? Your logic doesn't cover it, does it!?

The most wrong thing in ACC is.. you gain SA with AI, this should "never ever" happén but here we are.
There are lots of drivers that are not safe and the "stupit entitled drivers" also the "rammers" that have 70+, 80+ or even 90+ because of sgaining SA with AI.

[Liquid Inc]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The most wrong thing in ACC is.. you gain SA with AI, this should "never ever" happén but here we are.
There are lots of drivers that are not safe and the "stupit entitled drivers" also the "rammers" that have 70+, 80+ or even 90+ because of sgaining SA with AI.

If you want a closed group of players, and to block newcomers from joining said group, that's the way to do it.......

If newcomers are forced to race in low rating races, you run the risk of driving them away from the game. If they can't gain SA rating in the low rating races, because it's full of rammers / greifers, or there simply isn't any races available in their SA rating bracket, then, they quit...

It's a difficult problem to solve, but your idea doesn't do it.

[FaultyJawa]

I didn't know there were so many expert programmers here. You all should go apply at Kunos since it's clearly so easy for you to create a better penalty and rating system.

/s

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Liquid Inc:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The most wrong thing in ACC is.. you gain SA with AI, this should "never ever" happén but here we are.
There are lots of drivers that are not safe and the "stupit entitled drivers" also the "rammers" that have 70+, 80+ or even 90+ because of sgaining SA with AI.

If you want a closed group of players, and to block newcomers from joining said group, that's the way to do it.......

If newcomers are forced to race in low rating races, you run the risk of driving them away from the game. If they can't gain SA rating in the low rating races, because it's full of rammers / greifers, or there simply isn't any races available in their SA rating bracket, then, they quit...

It's a difficult problem to solve, but your idea doesn't do it.

There is always newcomers, also there are plenty of servers with low or zero SA.
So no it would not block anyone.

To gain SA with AI is absolutely wrong and stupid and result in entitled drivers, stupid drivers and total jerks driving with 70+ and even 90+ SA.

These new drivers driving with high SA rating farmed with AI will only encounters worst case scenarios at higher SA ratings as higher SA ratings dont mean "saver environment" but environment that often have more faster drivers and more entitled drivers and entitled drivers are drivers that could care less about everyone else if they think they own the racing line (they dont know or just dont care about sharing a turn or even a straight because if they are ahead or if they "own the line" the other drivers are to step aside or get rammed/pushed-off/brake-tested/cut-off) and it happen more often at high rate servers than at low or zero SA servers (reason why I drive only at low or zero SA servers when I actuaally search for it, it is way safer environment and more fast drivers, even aliens, do the same).

You are pointing out a sittuation that is not true, these newcomers would not be excluded of anything but the entitled drivers, dirt stupid drivers and total jerks would be excluded of high SA servers, making SA worth something.

I maintain at least a 85+ SA rating even considering I drive with drivers thaat dont know what they are doing and may cause wrecks out of mistakes or lack of awareness (or just lack of knowledge of how to proceed, many just park the car to give the position even on straight, what is utterly dangerous but they just dont know how to do better) also they may cause accidents out of "not knowing how to defend or howw to try to overtake or get the position back", BUT drivers at higher SA rating are often faster and more experienced, still they are more often than not entitled drivers.

I believe a good chunk (of not more than half or almost all) of the entitled drivers are entitled exactly because the AI train them to be that entitled as the AI "never fight for position" and "always prioritize the player" so these playeers think everyone else is to act as AI toward them, what is stupidity at its best (how to expect other humans to act as AI when this player dont behave as AI? If that is not a lame excuse for entitlement it is stupidity at its best).

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by FaultyJawa:

I didn't know there were so many expert programmers here. You all should go apply at Kunos since it's clearly so easy for you to create a better penalty and rating system.

/s

Well, I am a programmer and part of what was suggested I allso suggested in the past, as ACC already knows your relative average speeds on straights, into each turn, through each turn and exiting each turn, som to know if your behaviour was "different" (like having too much speed or not braking on a braking zone you often brake or reducing too much speed or braking midturn or braking or reducing speed too much on turn exit) it can easily be used to see who "made a mistake" to apply the penalty according to how each driver drives.

This way it is not an average of all players meaning slower drivers will not get punished because of being slower and faster drivers will not get away without a penalty because of being faster and it is absolutely possible.

I am also sure the dirt drivers and total jerks would try and manage to find a way to "trick the system" (or at least they would try) but it would be a better system imho than the "give SA for everyone because yes" we have.
If ACC did not collect all this data I would agree it would be way too much work to make such system but ACC already collects it aand uses to keep all yourr ratings up to date so if ACC can do it for ratings i could also use it for a better penalty calculation.

Still, I am well aware it wil never change and Kunos will never ever apply any of that and will just throw the "penalties for everyone" system we have now and I myself can handle that so I dont care.

[FaultyJawa]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by FaultyJawa:

I didn't know there were so many expert programmers here. You all should go apply at Kunos since it's clearly so easy for you to create a better penalty and rating system.

/s

Well, I am a programmer and part of what was suggested I allso suggested in the past, as ACC already knows your relative average speeds on straights, into each turn, through each turn and exiting each turn, som to know if your behaviour was "different" (like having too much speed or not braking on a braking zone you often brake or reducing too much speed or braking midturn or braking or reducing speed too much on turn exit) it can easily be used to see who "made a mistake" to apply the penalty according to how each driver drives.

This way it is not an average of all players meaning slower drivers will not get punished because of being slower and faster drivers will not get away without a penalty because of being faster and it is absolutely possible.

I am also sure the dirt drivers and total jerks would try and manage to find a way to "trick the system" (or at least they would try) but it would be a better system imho than the "give SA for everyone because yes" we have.
If ACC did not collect all this data I would agree it would be way too much work to make such system but ACC already collects it aand uses to keep all yourr ratings up to date so if ACC can do it for ratings i could also use it for a better penalty calculation.

Still, I am well aware it wil never change and Kunos will never ever apply any of that and will just throw the "penalties for everyone" system we have now and I myself can handle that so I dont care.

This is definitely a sensible solution, especially since the data is already there.

My time in tech started on the business side. So when I think about it realistically and pragmatically, if you implemented any change like this, you'd have to take one of two options from a product and business perspective:

1. You disallow players to issue any kind of appeals for SA penalties, or
2. You create an appeal ticket system that has to be manually managed and reviewed by an employee (or several).

Doing the former is going to inevitably piss off the playerbase the same way as SA rating does now, if not worse (But does it really bother most of the playerbase?).

Doing the latter means you have to either put that workload on an existing team (which is what would likely happen), or you have to hire a couple more people to manage it, which is an added cost that isn't really justifiable if your profit margins or revenue stability don't have enough of a buffer.

But, like you (and I think most people), I can handle the SA system being what it is, so I really don't care either. Like you pointed out, it really doesn't mean as much as people think it does. And, there are workarounds for people to whom it really matters if they like seeing their SA at 99.

P.S. I suppose a third option could be just making a statement that SA rating means ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ outside of being a VERY generalized reflection of how predictable and safe a driver is, and that everyone should imagine a giant asterisk next to the rating.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by FaultyJawa:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Well, I am a programmer and part of what was suggested I allso suggested in the past, as ACC already knows your relative average speeds on straights, into each turn, through each turn and exiting each turn, som to know if your behaviour was "different" (like having too much speed or not braking on a braking zone you often brake or reducing too much speed or braking midturn or braking or reducing speed too much on turn exit) it can easily be used to see who "made a mistake" to apply the penalty according to how each driver drives.

This way it is not an average of all players meaning slower drivers will not get punished because of being slower and faster drivers will not get away without a penalty because of being faster and it is absolutely possible.

I am also sure the dirt drivers and total jerks would try and manage to find a way to "trick the system" (or at least they would try) but it would be a better system imho than the "give SA for everyone because yes" we have.
If ACC did not collect all this data I would agree it would be way too much work to make such system but ACC already collects it aand uses to keep all yourr ratings up to date so if ACC can do it for ratings i could also use it for a better penalty calculation.

Still, I am well aware it wil never change and Kunos will never ever apply any of that and will just throw the "penalties for everyone" system we have now and I myself can handle that so I dont care.

This is definitely a sensible solution, especially since the data is already there.

My time in tech started on the business side. So when I think about it realistically and pragmatically, if you implemented any change like this, you'd have to take one of two options from a product and business perspective:

1. You disallow players to issue any kind of appeals for SA penalties, or
2. You create an appeal ticket system that has to be manually managed and reviewed by an employee (or several).

Doing the former is going to inevitably piss off the playerbase the same way as SA rating does now, if not worse (But does it really bother most of the playerbase?).

Doing the latter means you have to either put that workload on an existing team (which is what would likely happen), or you have to hire a couple more people to manage it, which is an added cost that isn't really justifiable if your profit margins or revenue stability don't have enough of a buffer.

But, like you (and I think most people), I can handle the SA system being what it is, so I really don't care either. Like you pointed out, it really doesn't mean as much as people think it does. And, there are workarounds for people to whom it really matters if they like seeing their SA at 99.

P.S. I suppose a third option could be just making a statement that SA rating means ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ outside of being a VERY generalized reflection of how predictable and safe a driver is, and that everyone should imagine a giant asterisk next to the rating.

No one hired to evaluate SA is needed (a steward), the system would apply the penalty after the hit even if it takes a few seconds, what already happen at ACC with giving you a warning or invalidating your lap (like at Brands going offtrack using too much the inside kerb of the blind right hander T7 while I already had my lap time invalidated only at the straight after the left turn T8) so it would not be an issue (loss of frames or affecting physics calculation) to apply the SA penalty later for the system I suggested (without any human behind it).

Stewarding work for group races and penalties (or kicking someone out) being applied after the race by investigation but it is not what I suggested.

[thief_035]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The most wrong thing in ACC is.. you gain SA with AI, this should "never ever" happén but here we are.
There are lots of drivers that are not safe and the "stupit entitled drivers" also the "rammers" that have 70+, 80+ or even 90+ because of sgaining SA with AI.

to farm SA vs AI, you still need to drive close to them without incidents. if a guy gets 80 SA even if he only races vs AI in SP, that means at least he can drive MANY kilometers close to other cars with safety.
thats what kunos wanted, i suppose.
even if SA was meant to be earned only in MP, the guys who want to farm it, still can do it with some friends in empty servers...
those "rammers" with 80+ safety, actually CAN drive for hundreds of hours very close to opponents without incidents. thats what their rating says. if they can in SP, that means they know how to be safe in MP too.
and as i said, they could farm in MP, not so easy but they could...

i know you race public lobbies neo. in my leagues, NO ONE cares if someone farms SA. if you have an incident, you have it with people who race together almost every day FOR YEARS and they care about your safety and their reputation.
incidents are judged by real stewards and not (only) from kunos code and scripts.
you get penalties that really matters (including banning for troll rammers).

thats literally RACING simulation. public lobbies is just gaming and there is not any rating system that can do real justice there.

i quit most public/random multiplayer (in all genres) from the times of battlefield 3 (cheaters, campers, granade spammers, PTFO etc). since then, i mostly go online in known servers: knowing as much as possible who you compete with is essential in any competition.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by thief_035:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

The most wrong thing in ACC is.. you gain SA with AI, this should "never ever" happén but here we are.
There are lots of drivers that are not safe and the "stupit entitled drivers" also the "rammers" that have 70+, 80+ or even 90+ because of sgaining SA with AI.

to farm SA vs AI, you still need to drive close to them without incidents. if a guy gets 80 SA even if he only races vs AI in SP, that means at least he can drive MANY kilometers close to other cars with safety.
thats what kunos wanted, i suppose.
even if SA was meant to be earned only in MP, the guys who want to farm it, still can do it with some friends in empty servers...
those "rammers" with 80+ safety, actually CAN drive for hundreds of hours very close to opponents without incidents. thats what their rating says. if they can in SP, that means they know how to be safe in MP too.
and as i said, they could farm in MP, not so easy but they could...

i know you race public lobbies neo. in my leagues, NO ONE cares if someone farms SA. if you have an incident, you have it with people who race together almost every day FOR YEARS and they care about your safety and their reputation.
incidents are judged by real stewards and not (only) from kunos code and scripts.
you get penalties that really matters (including banning for troll rammers).

thats literally RACING simulation. public lobbies is just gaming and there is not any rating system that can do real justice there.

i quit most public/random multiplayer (in all genres) from the times of battlefield 3 (cheaters, campers, granade spammers, PTFO etc). since then, i mostly go online in known servers: knowing as much as possible who you compete with is essential in any competition.

As AI dont fight, dont do mistakes and always drive the same line AI only prepare the player for a dumb sterile on rails ultra passive unrealistic scenario that will not repeat online, so no AI should never ever grant SA no matter what because it is useless for learning how to race, it is only useful for starting to learn a track (with some wrong racing line and wrong too early braking points).

If a guy can drive close to AI amd farmed 80+SA against AI the moment he goes online he is:
- someone prone to be rearended (because of braking too early)
- someone prone to think there is only one line
- someone prone to dont share a straight or a turn
- someone prone to not having any awareness aside from what is in front
So no if someone say to have farmed that much SA against AI I myself take extra care with this player because I know it is someone prone to not know how to drive with other cars around if other cars are not sterile on rails and ultra passive ... I follow that player with this in mind and confirm braking points and racing line, I go side by side on the straight and overtake but if I go side by side with me "being on the racing line" it is easier to happen that I get pushed offtrack (because that player thinks he own the line and I must step aside or park my car for him abd yes I already read such kind of comment through my years of ACC and not only once or twice).

So no, players should never ever gain SA with AI because not only it dont prepare them fir any real racing but also make them entitled and prone to be Strolls not sharing even a straight and absolutely lacking awareness aside from what is in front (amd Stroll awaremess to what happens ahead is also crap too) because they learned with sterile unrealistic scenario that may even prepare them to be entitled or a walking danger (or maybe even the players that park on straights or turns for others to pass are mimicking AI begavior because AI foes that).

[rob_every05]

The issues are varied and many.

But the basic fact remains the ONLY way to gain SA rating quickly is to never touch or be touched by anyone and also find some people to drive closely with for a few laps, if you do this in a 20 minute race you might gain 2 SA points per race, more initially.

Not cutting, not touching grass or kerbs, clean laps, none of this matters as it does in other games, this affects other less important rating systems.

The only real way to improve is to drive and think everyone will turn in on you, everyone will ram you and everyone will not be helpful in racing, which is fairly unrealistic and rather sad.

It has been the same for years as Kunos designed it and never touched it thereafter, because it doesn't affect the only people they care about, Esports, aliens and streamers.

[FaultyJawa]

Originally posted by rob_every05:

The only real way to improve is to drive and think everyone will turn in on you, everyone will ram you and everyone will not be helpful in racing, which is fairly unrealistic and rather sad.

It has been the same for years as Kunos designed it and never touched it thereafter, because it doesn't affect the only people they care about, Esports, aliens and streamers.

This feels a little bit like you're marginalizing yourself just to make a point, but I understand the frustration.

If this were real life, then no, you wouldn't be assuming everyone is going to hit you. But, this is the core issue with a digital medium and relative anonymity of the internet. You don't know the other people you're driving against, how old they are, or if they've even driven a car in real life, let alone raced. In real life, you will generally see less experienced drivers taking it easier and not making stupid moves as often as you do in sim racing (the risk of injury, penalties, and damage costs IRL will really change your outlook).

There's no real risk or consequence to being an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in a racing sim as there is in real life, and until that core issue gets fixed, it will remain a very imperfect system across the entire genre. iRacing is as close as you can get I think with bans regularly happening to idiots and reckless entitled players. I wish it could be the same in every racing game.

[goblueteam]

its probably just me but man ever sense nords 24 came out my SA plummeted was at 99 SA from a couple months after i got the game 5 years ago till a few months ago.

went down to 77 SA racing against AI at nords and cant seem to get it back up every little touch is giving me a - point now lol i think down to 74 the problem is half the time the AI crashes and then a whole boat load of AI cars just keep crashing into you full speed.

I normally race online multiplayer and not with AI the AI just seems brutal now horrible moves almost 90% chance of getting touched in every corner some tracks they straight up plow right through you if your on the outside on a hair pin ive seen 10 AI cars go straight off the track in the same corner example is the hair pin on the top of the hill at kylami i got hit so many times from AI spinning and coming back to the track not sure what happened but the AI seems to of been broken at some point or maybe always was i play on 100-100 for settings.

anyways its crazy to me i raced public competition server and public lobbies for 5 years sometimes probably 300-500 races mostly 45min-1hour races a year or more and maintained 99 SA with no thought about SA hardly at all other than drive reasonable around other people and yea with the AI that does not work at all lol they will come into your lane almost straight up side swipe you with intent is how it seems by the way they start swerving.

i do think they need to have a way to tell if its just barely a rub in a corner that was nothing at all or a hard hit that caused chaos or damage that matters if your actually racing door to door your going to touch here and there and the game doesnt really allow for that anymore for me i can drive a hour without a touch and basically get nothing then a AI barely rubs me and i get -1 SA lol also this is when im trying to farm SA so im trying to make sure im driving next to cars or in a pack still not getting SA added back.

so i do see what people are complaining about now no clue what happened but something seems to be waay different now the AI appears to have way less control of there cars or just bounce out of control in some places ive seen many massive pile ups and AI just driving past the braking zones and going right off track or plowing into everyone on the outside of the turn.
the AI is much worse really tough to predict harder to drive around then people in public lobbies no regard for other cars around them i sware if i was just cursing around the track with a 30 second gap in front and behind a AI would appear out of thin air and smash into me lol
seriously feels like the game is broken to me i dont think they ever adjusted AI for physics changes or something i know i raced AI a few years ago and dont remember stuff like this happening now i dont really feel like racing multiplayer because it stresses me out but man racing against the AI is terrible.

also i just dont have the same amount of time to race now with the small amount of +SA i get for a 20 min race with no contact(not even 1 point it must be like .125-.250 of a point or something i think it would take 10-20 hours of driving without a touch to get back to 99 SA this just seems crazy for someone with 1800 hours in the game i wish i could go back and see my total number of races and incidents its just a massive wall to keep you from being able to actually race at this point i cant even join the races i want to join and am stuck doing AI races ♥♥♥♥♥footing around so i dont get bumped and still get bumped non stop lol unless i actually did not race and just followed the last place car its almost 100% chance i will get -1 point for every AI race i do or more lol

[Morethan2Letters]

Originally posted by nono782:

The SA rating should be done by the players.
At the end of a race, we should be able to give a bonus or a minus to some players we met.
Easy, not sure you get the right rating everytime, but overall statistics would play right.

People would only abuse this system and boost their friends.

[Nik2Ez]

I don't get it why people hate on the SA system so much. Only negative thing about it is that people who crash into you on purpose will also deduct your SA. But that doesn't happen as often as people say. Most of the time people just can't drive properly braking way to late and being way too aggressive overall. But maintaining a SA of over 80 was never an issue. Racing in multiplayer exclusively and daily for 4 months now and i never dropped below 94 SA. Staying out of trouble isn't that hard.

[FaultyJawa]

I think there's a common issue with any online game where people are more likely to post rage threads when one person does something ♥♥♥♥♥♥, rather than the 20 other times when everyone was fine and had a good time. So it makes it all seem like it's a bigger problem than it actually is.