Realism question ?

[Pendragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4342JC3Fgc

This video is probably made for comparing graphics and sounds with the real life, yet something has caught my attention. The steering wheel, the car control, in real life the driver needs to make a lot of counter steering and little adjustments to keep the car under control while entering the corner, in corner and exits. When we look at the ACC that looks very soft and gentle. You don't need much counter steering or little adjustments to keep the car under control, you just need a few it is not so bad of course, but this comparison shows a huge difference.

So my question is, is ACC so unrealistic in terms of how a car behaviors? Is it too easy compared to real life so you don't need much skill? ( The video is just an example, do not only look at it, keep in mind your own experience )

[LauraSaurusRAWR]

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

According to Nicky Thiim ACC isn't close to real life at all. He drives the V12 vantage in the Blancpain series IRL so he should know. You will always get sim racers saying x game is so realistic but they often have nothing to compare it with except other sims. IMO sims aren't going to be close to real life any time soon. A good example to me is in AC I could do the nordschleife in 6.28 in the pagani zonda R yet IRL the lap record for it is a 6.47. I'm above average but not as fast as the top guys so if I can go 19 seconds quicker than a race driver it proves sims are just games at the end of the day.

I'm sure many will disagree with me on this but I've never heard any racing driver say x sim is close to real life. Every sim has good and bad points and at the end of the day many sim racers have never driven a race car to know what is accurate and what is not. Jimmy Broadbent has driven a few cars recently then drove them on the sim and said sims are far easier than real life. Nicky Thiim said ACC is a good game but laughed when someone asked if ACC is like real life. IMO all the proof you need that sims aren't close to real life.

So your point being is that a real driver laughs at a stupid question?
Sorry but your "proof" is just fake-news, nothing more. You do not seem to have the slightest clue what you are talking about.
In fact he even went into detail explaining how the cars turn out to drive like the real live equivalents in terms of over and understeer, sound, and in terms of engine placement / chassis behaviour.

The "proof" you are looking for in regards to sims is F1 drivers, and technicians claiming that PC-simulations are just 1 or 2 generations behind their professional simulation equipment - since F1 drivers spend more than 90% of the practice time in simulators. 10% in real cars.

In regards to your "comparisons":
There are no gforces in your deskchair, arent there? You do not lose a leg when you pierce a wall with your car, dont you? You do not have to replace that Pagani Zonda R when you smash it into pieces every second lap, dont you? You also do not risk your life in a deskchair, so why even compare your "faster" times to times IRL? (especially with a nieche car thats completely irrelevant to the discussion about ACC, and not properly modeled because its not a race series car with limited base data to model the simcar on)
Also please show me how to drive the Pagani Zonda R in ACC, because then I would also see how this is relevant to this discussion.

Anyway the whole discussion whether it is "like real life" is irrelevant due to the above points.

Much more important is accurate physics-modeling and data comparison aka telemetry in ACC vs telemetry in RL. And they are very much identical.
You can then go from there and do the same in a real race car, adjusting to real life factors. You have to manage to get the ingame telemetry onto the real track. And thats entirely possible.

You also can not compare Jimmie Broadbent driving real cars because
a) they were set up so he cant smash them, he did not get a say in this due to insurance reasons
b) they arent running like the in-race equivalent
c) he most probably did not have the time to adjust for real life factors, since he is not a racedriver

So your answer is simply wrong, and off-topic.
To answer OP's question. Telemetry is equal to real life in most cars, that means close to 100% realism on the physics-side as far as it is possible on a consumer PC. For actual sim-racing or simulations you need calculation clusters to process the physics. It would not be possible on a normal PC.

The fact that you can drive your car around without countersteering like in the video means that you are not nearly at the limit of the car and you are not on a level yet where precise driving is relevant.

Neither is it too easy. In real life it is extremely easy to drive a race car round a track far below its limit. If you drive a GT3 car slowly it moves as if you would turn the wheels yourself. Its like with most things, doing them is easy, mastering them is the hard part. (and in regards to RL racing - NOT crashing is also the hard part)

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

Ye ACC is easy to play, I'm having to use a pad atm as my pedals are broke yet still managed a 2.01 at silverstone in only my second race around there. So in 20 mins or driving I'm not far off the real life times with a pad. I think I'd do a 1.58/9 on my wheel without much practise so it is very easy to be on par with real times in games.

Id call bs. Post a video of a top 10 leaderboard time you did, please. You seem to be a real driving genius beating aliens on a pad, so lets see your faster-than-IRL-track-records without any steering assists.

[DC2Dixon]

Originally posted by Lillycookie:

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

According to Nicky Thiim ACC isn't close to real life at all. He drives the V12 vantage in the Blancpain series IRL so he should know. You will always get sim racers saying x game is so realistic but they often have nothing to compare it with except other sims. IMO sims aren't going to be close to real life any time soon. A good example to me is in AC I could do the nordschleife in 6.28 in the pagani zonda R yet IRL the lap record for it is a 6.47. I'm above average but not as fast as the top guys so if I can go 19 seconds quicker than a race driver it proves sims are just games at the end of the day.

I'm sure many will disagree with me on this but I've never heard any racing driver say x sim is close to real life. Every sim has good and bad points and at the end of the day many sim racers have never driven a race car to know what is accurate and what is not. Jimmy Broadbent has driven a few cars recently then drove them on the sim and said sims are far easier than real life. Nicky Thiim said ACC is a good game but laughed when someone asked if ACC is like real life. IMO all the proof you need that sims aren't close to real life.

So your point being is that a real driver laughs at a stupid question?
There are no gforces in your deskchair, arent there? You do not lose a leg when you pierce a wall with your car, dont you? You do not have to replace that Pagani Zonda R when you smash it into pieces every second lap, dont you? You also do not risk your life in a deskchair, so why even compare your "faster" times to times IRL? (especially with a nieche car thats completely irrelevant to the discussion about ACC, and not properly modeled because its not a race series car with limited base data to model the simcar on)

Anyway the whole discussion whether it is "like real life" is irrelevant due to the above points.

Much more important is accurate physics-modeling and data comparison aka telemetry in ACC vs telemetry in RL. And they are very much identical.
You can then go from there and do the same in a real race car, adjusting to real life factors. You have to manage to get the ingame telemetry onto the real track. And thats entirely possible.

You also can not compare Jimmie Broadbent driving real cars because
a) they were set up so he cant smash them, he did not get a say in this due to insurance reasons
b) they arent running like the in-race equivalent
c) he most probably did not have the time to adjust for real life factors, since he is not a racedriver

So your answer is simply wrong, and off-topic.
To answer OP's question. Telemetry is equal to real life in most cars, that means close to 100% realism on the physics-side as far as it is possible on a consumer PC. For actual sim-racing or simulations you need calculation clusters to process the physics. It would not be possible on a normal PC.

The fact that you can drive your car around without countersteering like in the video means that you are not nearly at the limit of the car and you are not on a level yet where precise driving is relevant.

Neither is it too easy. In real life it is extremely easy to drive a race car round a track far below its limit. If you drive a GT3 car slowly it moves as if you would turn the wheels yourself. Its like with most things, doing them is easy, mastering them is the hard part. (and in regards to RL racing - NOT crashing is also the hard part)

Ok so why was Nicky having trouble controlling the cars and questioning why the car was behaving the way it was? He touches a kerb and is like WTF? the back end steps out and again is like WTF? he says about the tyres being inaccurate. That was only in the one video I saw of him testing the game. Look at lap times in game then compare them to real life. That is a valid point when comparing a game to real life. On a quali lap a racing driver doesn't think what if I crash because they aim for the best possible lap time, they don't pay to replace parts.

The op video shows how easy a game is compared with real life driving. The real lambo driver fights the car yet in game it looks like a casual Sunday drive in comparrison. On a ps4 pad with 20 mins of driving I'm lapping in the 2.01 sec range, when I replace my pedals ill easily do a 1.59. Put quali fuel in and a 1.58 is possible with little practice, so I could easily drive in the blancpain series and qualify in the top 10 if the game is a good comparison to real life. Nicky laughed when someone asked how close it is to real life physics wise, he laughed hard and said no its not like real life its just a good game. I'm sorry if your under the assumption you are able to drive a GT3 car the same as you can in any game but it simply isn't the case. If sims are that accurate why don't F1 drivers like using the ones the teams have? Most say there ok but not like driving the cars in real life on track. There will always be gamer's who think Iracing, ACC etc are like real life but whenever I see a racing driver asked how accurate they are they all say not really that accurate. I'm going to believe them over people who have never driven a race car in there life and sit at home gaming pretending to be racing drivers, that's me included.

[DC2Dixon]

Id call bs. Post a video of a top 10 leaderboard time you did, please. You seem to be a real driving genius beating aliens on a pad, so lets see your faster-than-IRL-track-records without any steering assists. [/quote]
Sure Ill do a quali run now to prove I can do a 2.01 on a pad using the safe setup. If you can tell me how to post a screen shot on the forum as I don't know how to do that sorry.
I can also post my zonda R time screenshot if you want that aswell?

[d-^^eathstare>]

Don't forget that Thiim did his ACC test before the patch that addressed slippery kerbs. Also Kunos is still working on it and fine tuning the tyre behavior. They surely will continue and keep adjusting the sim over time, like they did with AC.

And just to say, since some people seem to take Thiims opinion for granted: Jan Seyffarth, a former AMG GT3 pilot, tried ACC and the Nuerburgring. His summary is that ACC is pretty close to the behaviour of real gt3 cars. His videos are on yt. So what gives?

[DerpyDays]

Originally posted by Lillycookie:

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

According to Nicky Thiim ACC isn't close to real life at all. He drives the V12 vantage in the Blancpain series IRL so he should know. You will always get sim racers saying x game is so realistic but they often have nothing to compare it with except other sims. IMO sims aren't going to be close to real life any time soon. A good example to me is in AC I could do the nordschleife in 6.28 in the pagani zonda R yet IRL the lap record for it is a 6.47. I'm above average but not as fast as the top guys so if I can go 19 seconds quicker than a race driver it proves sims are just games at the end of the day.

I'm sure many will disagree with me on this but I've never heard any racing driver say x sim is close to real life. Every sim has good and bad points and at the end of the day many sim racers have never driven a race car to know what is accurate and what is not. Jimmy Broadbent has driven a few cars recently then drove them on the sim and said sims are far easier than real life. Nicky Thiim said ACC is a good game but laughed when someone asked if ACC is like real life. IMO all the proof you need that sims aren't close to real life.

So your point being is that a real driver laughs at a stupid question?
Sorry but your "proof" is just fake-news, nothing more. You do not seem to have the slightest clue what you are talking about.
In fact he even went into detail explaining how the cars turn out to drive like the real live equivalents in terms of over and understeer, sound, and in terms of engine placement / chassis behaviour.

The "proof" you are looking for in regards to sims is F1 drivers, and technicians claiming that PC-simulations are just 1 or 2 generations behind their professional simulation equipment - since F1 drivers spend more than 90% of the practice time in simulators. 10% in real cars.

In regards to your "comparisons":
There are no gforces in your deskchair, arent there? You do not lose a leg when you pierce a wall with your car, dont you? You do not have to replace that Pagani Zonda R when you smash it into pieces every second lap, dont you? You also do not risk your life in a deskchair, so why even compare your "faster" times to times IRL? (especially with a nieche car thats completely irrelevant to the discussion about ACC, and not properly modeled because its not a race series car with limited base data to model the simcar on)
Also please show me how to drive the Pagani Zonda R in ACC, because then I would also see how this is relevant to this discussion.

Anyway the whole discussion whether it is "like real life" is irrelevant due to the above points.

Much more important is accurate physics-modeling and data comparison aka telemetry in ACC vs telemetry in RL. And they are very much identical.
You can then go from there and do the same in a real race car, adjusting to real life factors. You have to manage to get the ingame telemetry onto the real track. And thats entirely possible.

You also can not compare Jimmie Broadbent driving real cars because
a) they were set up so he cant smash them, he did not get a say in this due to insurance reasons
b) they arent running like the in-race equivalent
c) he most probably did not have the time to adjust for real life factors, since he is not a racedriver

So your answer is simply wrong, and off-topic.
To answer OP's question. Telemetry is equal to real life in most cars, that means close to 100% realism on the physics-side as far as it is possible on a consumer PC. For actual sim-racing or simulations you need calculation clusters to process the physics. It would not be possible on a normal PC.

The fact that you can drive your car around without countersteering like in the video means that you are not nearly at the limit of the car and you are not on a level yet where precise driving is relevant.

Neither is it too easy. In real life it is extremely easy to drive a race car round a track far below its limit. If you drive a GT3 car slowly it moves as if you would turn the wheels yourself. Its like with most things, doing them is easy, mastering them is the hard part. (and in regards to RL racing - NOT crashing is also the hard part)

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

Ye ACC is easy to play, I'm having to use a pad atm as my pedals are broke yet still managed a 2.01 at silverstone in only my second race around there. So in 20 mins or driving I'm not far off the real life times with a pad. I think I'd do a 1.58/9 on my wheel without much practise so it is very easy to be on par with real times in games.

Id call bs. Post a video of a top 10 leaderboard time you did, please. You seem to be a real driving genius beating aliens on a pad, so lets see your faster-than-IRL-track-records without any steering assists.

You have to keep in mind Nicki Thiim is a WEC GTE champion, so his input and credibility is already validated. The fact that he laughs at this game and the fact he can't counter bottoming out of his rear end in an Audi R8 LMS GT3 is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ laughable

You even got a GT4 driver who made another review saying how driving a Huracan GT3 in this game is harder than the real thing.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197991230945/recommended/805550/

Counter steering at the loss of grip in this game punishes you and locks up your tires like it's scripted. That ain't realistic when you can pull that ♥♥♥♥ IRL. PCARS 2 and rFactor 2 you can do it but here you can't.

[Mahjik]

Originally posted by Lillycookie:

The "proof" you are looking for in regards to sims is F1 drivers, and technicians claiming that PC-simulations are just 1 or 2 generations behind their professional simulation equipment - since F1 drivers spend more than 90% of the practice time in simulators. 10% in real cars.

That's because of costs, not because their simulations are that good.

[DC2Dixon]

Originally posted by DerpyDays:

Originally posted by Lillycookie:

So your point being is that a real driver laughs at a stupid question?
Sorry but your "proof" is just fake-news, nothing more. You do not seem to have the slightest clue what you are talking about.
In fact he even went into detail explaining how the cars turn out to drive like the real live equivalents in terms of over and understeer, sound, and in terms of engine placement / chassis behaviour.

The "proof" you are looking for in regards to sims is F1 drivers, and technicians claiming that PC-simulations are just 1 or 2 generations behind their professional simulation equipment - since F1 drivers spend more than 90% of the practice time in simulators. 10% in real cars.

In regards to your "comparisons":
There are no gforces in your deskchair, arent there? You do not lose a leg when you pierce a wall with your car, dont you? You do not have to replace that Pagani Zonda R when you smash it into pieces every second lap, dont you? You also do not risk your life in a deskchair, so why even compare your "faster" times to times IRL? (especially with a nieche car thats completely irrelevant to the discussion about ACC, and not properly modeled because its not a race series car with limited base data to model the simcar on)
Also please show me how to drive the Pagani Zonda R in ACC, because then I would also see how this is relevant to this discussion.

Anyway the whole discussion whether it is "like real life" is irrelevant due to the above points.

Much more important is accurate physics-modeling and data comparison aka telemetry in ACC vs telemetry in RL. And they are very much identical.
You can then go from there and do the same in a real race car, adjusting to real life factors. You have to manage to get the ingame telemetry onto the real track. And thats entirely possible.

You also can not compare Jimmie Broadbent driving real cars because
a) they were set up so he cant smash them, he did not get a say in this due to insurance reasons
b) they arent running like the in-race equivalent
c) he most probably did not have the time to adjust for real life factors, since he is not a racedriver

So your answer is simply wrong, and off-topic.
To answer OP's question. Telemetry is equal to real life in most cars, that means close to 100% realism on the physics-side as far as it is possible on a consumer PC. For actual sim-racing or simulations you need calculation clusters to process the physics. It would not be possible on a normal PC.

The fact that you can drive your car around without countersteering like in the video means that you are not nearly at the limit of the car and you are not on a level yet where precise driving is relevant.

Neither is it too easy. In real life it is extremely easy to drive a race car round a track far below its limit. If you drive a GT3 car slowly it moves as if you would turn the wheels yourself. Its like with most things, doing them is easy, mastering them is the hard part. (and in regards to RL racing - NOT crashing is also the hard part)



Id call bs. Post a video of a top 10 leaderboard time you did, please. You seem to be a real driving genius beating aliens on a pad, so lets see your faster-than-IRL-track-records without any steering assists.

You have to keep in mind Nicki Thiim is a WEC GTE champion, so his input and credibility is already validated. The fact that he laughs at this game and the fact he can't counter bottoming out of his rear end in an Audi R8 LMS GT3 is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ laughable

You even got a GT4 driver who made another review saying how driving a Huracan GT3 in this game is harder than the real thing.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197991230945/recommended/805550/

Counter steering at the loss of grip in this game punishes you and locks up your tires like it's scripted. That ain't realistic when you can pull that ♥♥♥♥ IRL. PCARS 2 and rFactor 2 you can do it but here you can't.

That review pretty much sums up what I took away from Nicki Thiim's review/gameplay. Its not close to real life as the real cars don't behave like that. "sim" racers as they like to think they are always believe that a game is matching real life and they just don't. There are aspects that games do better than others but they are all games tbh. I enjoy the more simulator type games but know they are not real. I'm still waiting to hear if Lillycookie wants me to spend 10 mins doing a 2.01 lap on a ps4 pad to prove how easy it is to do. Guess I might of hurt her feelings because if they think a 2.01 is beating the aliens they are obviously slow at racing games. I'm able to go faster on my wheel but I'm not in the same league as the top drivers on any game I play.

[d-^^eathstare>]

it is out of question that simulators are not real, that is not the point that needs to be discussed

[Sterling Archer]

Originally posted by d-^^eathstare>:

it is out of question that simulators are not real, that is not the point that needs to be discussed

yet sadly, will be the dead horse that is flogged continuously

[DC2Dixon]

Surely it is if the OP is Realism question? You and Lillycookie seem to believe and try to prove ACC is like real life so just pointing out the facts I take away from people who know and understand about racing cars. Gamer's have nothing to go off except other games, 99% of the people here have never and will never drive a racing car so don't see the point in trying to say it's realistic. ACC is a game exactly like need for speed is, The only difference is ACC tries to simulate what it is like to drive the cars unlike need for speed. I don't care about how real the game is because I know it's not real but some people always like to bang on about a game being a sim. I'll take a racing drivers word over any gamer's word any day of the week.

For me its how fun is a game to whether I enjoy it or not. ACC is very boring IMO and something I might go back to playing often only when I get new pedals. I admit I don't enjoy ACC but on a pad that's to be expected after 5+ years on a fanatec wheel and pedals. The OP asked about realism and I answered IMO and the opinion of someone who would know more than any of us.

[Wylie28]

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

Originally posted by Wylie28:

Others say it is. You cant pick people that support the argument you want to be true and ignore all other proffesionals. The situation is simply complex.

You have lots of cars.

You have physics, which is different from the car model, which is different from the car parameters for each.

You have drivers that underatand FFB doesnt even attempt to replicate the real thing and learn ir before deciding how the car "drives". You have ones that drive 4 laps and dont modify a damn thing.

Who has said it 100% accurate tho? I've never once seen or heard anyone except sim racers say sims are exactly like real life. There are some that give a good sense or realism but they aren't close to real life yet. Every racing driver I've ever heard that doesn't play games say sims aren't close to real life and the ones that do play games say its not like real life. Simular in some aspects but not as hard as in real life.

Im talking about ALL drivers. Including ones that you heard, and definetly including those with sim experiance. In fact people without sim experiance are irrelevant. Understanding sim FFB and actually spending time setting cars/FOV up is VERY IMPORTANT for determining if something is realistic or not.

And as i pointed out earlier. Understanding the difference between physics, the driving model, and the parameters changed to make each car is required to make any opinion in favor or not in favor of it not being realistic. Something your one example lacks completely.

[DC2Dixon]

Originally posted by Wylie28:

Originally posted by dc2dixon:

Who has said it 100% accurate tho? I've never once seen or heard anyone except sim racers say sims are exactly like real life. There are some that give a good sense or realism but they aren't close to real life yet. Every racing driver I've ever heard that doesn't play games say sims aren't close to real life and the ones that do play games say its not like real life. Simular in some aspects but not as hard as in real life.

Im talking about ALL drivers. Including ones that you heard, and definetly including those with sim experiance. In fact people without sim experiance are irrelevant. Understanding sim FFB and actually spending time setting cars/FOV up is VERY IMPORTANT for determining if something is realistic or not.

And as i pointed out earlier. Understanding the difference between physics, the driving model, and the parameters changed to make each car is required to make any opinion in favor or not in favor of it not being realistic. Something your one example lacks completely.

OK so in your opinion Max Verstappen and Lando Norris are not setting there wheels up and using the correct views so that's the only reason they say sims aren't that close to real life? OK if you say so. They have both said they enjoy them but only practise being consistant and race craft in them. It doesn't simulate driving the cars on track very well in most cases. The FOV has nothing to do with how realistic a game is! It gives you a better sense of what the cars are doing but has nothing to do with the physics. I'm sure you already know but FFB isn't what you feel in a real car, all it gives you is a little sense of what the car is doing as you have no other senses sitting at home doing 0MPH in your living room. FFB is a personal preferance for each individual, what you might think is right may feel way off to the next guy. If a F1 sim isn't 100% accurate then games are a huge way off no matter how much you tweak this and that.

Nicky Thiim should be able to drive the cars out of the box no problem in ACC but he couldn't! Don't try telling me that's because he doesn't know how to setup FFB and FOV properly.

EDIT: Can I ask what racing cars you have driven to compare to games? If all the F1 drivers say the sim are just ok to me that proves ACC, Iracing, AC etc aren't as realistic as people like to believe.

[Damien]

Force feedback isn't designed to mimic reality, but to convey all the games data in to a form you can feel. Real world cars don't feel like videogames that's a fact. Does this game feel realistic, yes it does but it's whole different thing. IMO

There's that few years old videoclip of Nigel Mansel playing a F1 game with G27 at a expo and he explains it quite well. There's a difference since it's a visual input.

https://youtu.be/UCiWf7WEViM?t=71

[rallysmo]

well after watch the vid look pretty similar to me, just a few tweak from the real one footage but you need to consider the one in game was a hotlap with the track set to optimun (maybe) and the real one you cant set the track and tires in optimal.

not saying this its the real thing but many sim drivers now drive IRL and they are really good, so sims are close to IRL.

check those vids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuzzHPdRvOc

he used to be a sim driver

funny iam faster IRL at least in gokarts

[Pendragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEL1cGhhTmQ

I think i got my answer, which is pretty much as i expected. But thinking and convincing yourself like you are driving in a sim that is so much realistic that you feel yourself like a racing driver! And i think that is the logic keeping people in Simracing which i am totally okay with.