Online

[buypolar pop]

How well do you think online will be active.? Now I'm playing bb crosstag and find games with no question. So I'm not saying large amounts of people, but more or less as stated how active this will last. Thoughts??!

[K-drive.]

It will be very easy to find matches for the first couple of weeks. Then after that online will see a 40% drop in activity as with most other fighting games on PC, it's the unfortunate truth. Of course I am hoping for the best, but this is what you can expect.

[Play Metaphor]

If I judge by this forum's activity... Things aren't looking good.

[topocanguro]

Originally posted by Shogil:

If I judge by this forum's activity... Things aren't looking good.

There's no reason for most of the people to look into the discussions to be completely fair

[Aniah]

Originally posted by Shogil:

If I judge by this forum's activity... Things aren't looking good.

Forums won't be active until release.

[I>U]

I give it 2 weeks + ocassional activity on weekends and sales past that margin.

Anyway, it should not take too much from CrossTag's playerbase, so rest assured - you will have a place to return

[Plasmapause]

Originally posted by I>U:

I give it 2 weeks + ocassional activity on weekends and sales past that margin.

I'd also wager there's some activity during weekday evenings.

Also just wondering if the lobby system is similar to bbtag? does it have chibi avatars?

[topocanguro]

Originally posted by Plasmapause:

Originally posted by I>U:

I give it 2 weeks + ocassional activity on weekends and sales past that margin.

I'd also wager there's some activity during weekday evenings.

Also just wondering if the lobby system is similar to bbtag? does it have chibi avatars?

I don't think so, that's just a feature that arcsys added in their GG and BB franchises, this game is not developed by them but only published

[Gaimo]

Game is super niche compared to Blazblue and Guilty Gear. but there will definitely be a player base still around with it.

You bet your ass I will do my best and keep this game alive though.

[KiKoGoTsKiLL]

I want to play this game and I try to keep alive too

[topocanguro]

This game actually had double the players that BBCF had at evo! I'm glad that TAG boosted its popularity a little and that the latest version is coming to pc, because it's a game that I always wanted to learn.

[JBM]

Originally posted by felys:

This game actually had double the players that BBCF had at evo! I'm glad that TAG boosted its popularity a little and that the latest version is coming to pc, because it's a game that I always wanted to learn.

That is true, but then, dbfz had most entrants at evo, yet it's slowly going down regarding pc numbers and is noticeably starting to lag behind tekken and sfv... When we add the insane launch numbers, the drop seems even more significant.

While fighting games traditionally have launch spikes and low retention, which then becomes a stable low number over time for couple of years (gg, for example), there are "soft" thresholds which are pretty important when it comes to the whole experience of online multiplayer.

I'd say that above 1000 concurrent players is the bare minimum for comfortable online functionality - meaning, no discords, no relying on rooms etc. but rather "plug and play". Both games that kinda offer this go way above that number, though (tekken having 2000-3000 players on pc and sfv having 1000-2000 + crossplay, which maybe even propel it into the five digit territory).

Around 300 concurrent players would assume a bit of "suffering", but you could still hop on and play, but you can basically forget about any MM or structure and you also have to be very cautious about playing at odd hours etc.

For unist, I have no idea whether it will sustain at least 300 players for significant amount of time. We can hope it does. But, the franchise itself is kinda confusing to gauge. It gained a bit of exposure due to bbtag and is certainly less known than either bb or gg, out of which only gg managed to have those stable 300 players over the course of couple of years. Even bbtag is below 200 already and hemorrhaging, even though it's accessible and has a mixture of IP's to attract people.

The game itself is actually very valuable, as it's kind of a "footsie anime" game, which is something I think the market is severely lacking. But, do people realize that? And, did the evo ripples and bbtag cross-IP shenanigans do anything? Are there any potential new players, that aren't "I played this before", "I like arcsys games", "I like anime fighters" or "I am bored of dbfz/sfv/t7/gg/xyz"? The hype might very well be among people who have already been "counted for".

[topocanguro]

Originally posted by Doolio:

Originally posted by felys:

This game actually had double the players that BBCF had at evo! I'm glad that TAG boosted its popularity a little and that the latest version is coming to pc, because it's a game that I always wanted to learn.

That is true, but then, dbfz had most entrants at evo, yet it's slowly going down regarding pc numbers and is noticeably starting to lag behind tekken and sfv... When we add the insane launch numbers, the drop seems even more significant.

While fighting games traditionally have launch spikes and low retention, which then becomes a stable low number over time for couple of years (gg, for example), there are "soft" thresholds which are pretty important when it comes to the whole experience of online multiplayer.

I'd say that above 1000 concurrent players is the bare minimum for comfortable online functionality - meaning, no discords, no relying on rooms etc. but rather "plug and play". Both games that kinda offer this go way above that number, though (tekken having 2000-3000 players on pc and sfv having 1000-2000 + crossplay, which maybe even propel it into the five digit territory).

Around 300 concurrent players would assume a bit of "suffering", but you could still hop on and play, but you can basically forget about any MM or structure and you also have to be very cautious about playing at odd hours etc.

For unist, I have no idea whether it will sustain at least 300 players for significant amount of time. We can hope it does. But, the franchise itself is kinda confusing to gauge. It gained a bit of exposure due to bbtag and is certainly less known than either bb or gg, out of which only gg managed to have those stable 300 players over the course of couple of years. Even bbtag is below 200 already and hemorrhaging, even though it's accessible and has a mixture of IP's to attract people.

The game itself is actually very valuable, as it's kind of a "footsie anime" game, which is something I think the market is severely lacking. But, do people realize that? And, did the evo ripples and bbtag cross-IP shenanigans do anything? Are there any potential new players, that aren't "I played this before", "I like arcsys games", "I like anime fighters" or "I am bored of dbfz/sfv/t7/gg/xyz"? The hype might very well be among people who have already been "counted for".

Sadly it is indeed true that although fighters are having a very good time compared to other decades and years, it feels like complete newbies entering the game are fewer and fewer as time goes.

Dbfz had an impressive number but I guess also kind of expected, considering the brand behind it.

In general, I think the evo numbers (and all the other streamed events in general) talk clearly: fighting games is something that people like to watch, but they can be so frustrating at the start that most people don't bother to actual play for a prolonged time.

That's why I believe fighting games still need something extra when it comes to actually "teach" a player and at the same time make it fun!
What makes it interesting when it comes to fighting games it's the strategies that go beyond a match, and how interesting and exciting to see players competing at high levels, so I think that instead of trying to dumb down games, they should try to make the path to the "pro" level more interesting, more rewarding, more fun. I'm not saying that to create such a thing is an easy thing, but I feel like it's more and more required considering how many younger players expect a linear learning in their videogames. Again, I'm really against making sequels easier just for trying to appeal to new players, because it's really not going to help much imo.

[JBM]

I think a wee bit of "dumbing down" isn't necessarily a bad thing - at least in my book. Not too much, though. It's a fine line. For example, I think going from 1f links to 3f links in SFV is an objectively better approach.

Because there's a difference between something having a solidly high skill floor and something being difficult for the sake of being difficult - while also being a multiplayer experience. I mean, if we up the frames to 120fps and put 1f links in a game, as well as "breathe" button, not even pro players would pull off bnb combos:) However, I don't think that would be a good game:)

Difficulty "sliders" should be approached cautiously, in my opinion. For example, I quickly gave up on dbfz because they made the game easier than your average fighting game, which I have no problem with, but I couldn't get over the WAY they got it easier. The whole no pushback thing, coupled with auto combos coming out even if you're whiffing and overly uniformed cast (mechanics-wise, I am not talking about seventeen gokus and that jazz:) ) didn't really sit well with me, although I tried and tried and tried to hype myself for the game.
There's a certain point and certain things which, if you mess around them too much, you start to break the genre. You can lower the skill floor of the game without breaking it, but you have to find ways to do it, not just to tweak numbers.


Regarding sensible tutorials, I was always maintaining the stance that fighting games could benefit form the RTS approach. RTS games, another hard genre, basically have what you mentioned - very extensive tutorials, which aren't boring, yet they present challenges and also threshold missions, gradual introduction of concepts and basically trick player into doing chores while thinking they aren't doing chores:)
And those tutorials are called campaigns:)

I think a fighting game could benefit from these kinds of concepts and I think companies are wrong to think that implementing "casual" content that has no drive to learn actual gameplay behind it will attract new players. It won't, you'll just end up with resources spent on the insignificant part of the game, plus you will have a fragmented player base.


There's also this thing about extensive tutorials being taxing. Which I realized after I pointed out how arcyss tutorials and missions are rather comprehensive and well done, which people countered by telling me how people end up forgetting things, mixing them up and lastly, simply giving up because they are being given the whole encyclopedia on what a car is, how it works, down to the tiniest screw, over the course of many hours - and they got zero driving experience during that.
Then I actually remembered how it is and realized they were completely right. I was basically parroting the "fgc" notion about those tutorials, like a, well, parrot:)


So, regarding tutorials, I am all for the RTS approach, connected missions that gradually get harder and also gradually implement elements and mechanics, while having a decent story in order to make a player want to know "what happens next". Along with the test missions, which spike in difficulty and can't be skipped, as checkpoints.



Another thing I think is the problem with fighting games when it comes to their appeal and also approach to tutorials etc. is overly incestuous relation of developers and the community. Now, this sounds like a good thing, but the truth is, this just makes sure that a game stays niche forever, even in the cases it doesn't necessarily have to. There's much snobbery and unnecessary traditionalism going on. For example, glancing at pretty much all fighting games out there, one would conclude that developers think that the worse menus a game has, it's a better game:) This goes for tutorials as well, any explanations about the mechanics, setting up training mode parameters, navigating the gui and so on. Online modes and implementation of them is abysmal in majority of fighting games. Dealing with quitters/botters/cheaters practically doesn't exist. Player interaction doesn't exist. Let alone some robust structure regarding these.



Now, this will be a controversial opinion, but I really think fighting games in general don't have to be niche. Even with difficulty intact. People think fps games are easy to get into, they absolutely aren't. The reason why it seems so is 1-people gradually learn fps games through years and years of spontaneous learning through playing them and 2-player pool is big enough for them for MM to find good matchups even at the lowest level. Using one control method for moving and another, completely different method for looking around in a very counter-intuitive way and then adding to that jumps, runs, reloading, weapon switching etc. is not easy.

Fighting games are varied when it comes to theme. So we can't say that they are niche due to that. We can leave that to train simulators and the like.
Fighting games are partly niche due to high skill floor, but that isn't something that's universally true for video games in general.


Fighting games should work on their appeal AS VIDEO GAMES, not as FIGHTING GAMES, in my opinion. This is just talking about basic appeal and marketability, without even touching mechanics or ease of access. Even if they stayed the same mechanically, but shifted in this regard, I think there would be more success.
Now, they mostly care about being appealing to, say, Justin Wong. I think that's the wrong approach.

[Shrek]

Honestly I will be happy to find matches for this game via discord because it's probably the only real alternative gameplay wise to SF.. 2D with no airdashing and a grounded neutral game.

[Goofy Oomfie]

Very little, sadly. Optimistically 3 weeks, realistically 1 and a half.

Originally posted by Trance_85:

Honestly I will be happy to find matches for this game via discord because it's probably the only real alternative gameplay wise to SF.. 2D with no airdashing and a grounded neutral game.

Killer Instinct?