Starting Production at 1 across the board?

[SimonStern]

I can't find anywhere in the prelude or base game rule book where all players would start the game with 1 production across the board. I noticed it when Prelude was first released here, but it's been a while and that's not fixed and I can't find where anyone else has mentioned it. Am I missing something (probably painfully obvious?) Or is this just a bug no one has bothered to report because they like starting with the extra production?

[AronFJenks]

Originally posted by SimonStern:

I can't find anywhere in the prelude or base game rule book where all players would start the game with 1 production across the board. I noticed it when Prelude was first released here, but it's been a while and that's not fixed and I can't find where anyone else has mentioned it. Am I missing something (probably painfully obvious?) Or is this just a bug no one has bothered to report because they like starting with the extra production?

Yes (You are missing something).

Something clearly stated in the rule book, as it happens :)

You somehow had the game set to "standard" game, instead of "corporate era," which means everyone starts with 1 production of everything, and much of the deck (and two corporations) are removed.

I think more than 99% of games played (either on steam or otherwise) are played "corporate era," and one of the most galling things about an otherwise superb game is that the rule book was written with "corporate era" described as an alternate version with the bizarre +1 production o everything listed as the "standard" version.

People consider it sacrilege to criticize the great Jacob Fryxelius, but this was a major blunder. Especially since it creates 4 distinct ways of playing even with no expansions - which just confuses new players:

1) "standard" with beginner corps
2) "standard" without beginner corps
3) corporate era without beginner corps (That alone can confuse people)
4) Corporate era with beginner corps.

Add in drafting, which the vast majority prefer to play with, and you've actually got 8 ways of playing, just using the standard game with no expansions.

The existence of beginner corps is an addendum to the folly of "standard game" versus "corporate era." I'm sure there are perhaps other games that have a similar mechanic, but it's terrible, causes confusion, and assumes an ineptitude on the part of the consumers that doesn't exist. It's not difficult to play with a real corporation the first time playing. It's not as though a bunch of dimwitted dullards are going to go out and buy and play a game called terraforming mars.

/Rant

[SimonStern]

Thank you. I have played TM in person more than 20 times and have NEVER used the "standard rules" nor the "standard corporations." I never even realized there were alternate rules for the "standard game" without the "standard corps." I'm glad I finally asked. :) Thanks!

[chaney]

A lot of people missed a lot of things in the rules. When the game first came out, there were many months of building the FAQ because the rule book was not clear enough for everyone. Even a lot of experienced gamers on BGG had strong disagreements about interpretations of the rules. Fortunately the Fryx's were present to make formal rulings and explanations and the FAQ is pretty complete now.

The writing style of the rules is friendly and comfortable for the majority of players, but not quite precise or explicit enough for the detail lovers among us. The FAQ was a practical solution.

[Brag] I think I uncovered the only thing that was acknowledged as an actual error in the original rules printing as part of that process. [/brag]

[AronFJenks]

Originally posted by chaney:

A lot of people missed a lot of things in the rules. When the game first came out, there were many months of building the FAQ because the rule book was not clear enough for everyone. Even a lot of experienced gamers on BGG had strong disagreements about interpretations of the rules. Fortunately the Fryx's were present to make formal rulings and explanations and the FAQ is pretty complete now.

The writing style of the rules is friendly and comfortable for the majority of players, but not quite precise or explicit enough for the detail lovers among us. The FAQ was a practical solution.

[Brag] I think I uncovered the only thing that was acknowledged as an actual error in the original rules printing as part of that process. [/brag]

I haven't read the FAQ, so I might not even be aware of this error in the printed rules. What was it?

[chaney]

I don't remember exactly. There was a conflict in two rules in a pretty uncommon combination of states. When one rule was clarified, I asked about the conflict. One of their known testers brought it up to the Fryxs who fixed/changed the rule. I'll search for it if you really care, let me know.

[Khashishi]

Multiple ways of playing is a feature, not a bug. While I (and everyone else, it seems) prefer corporate era, the standard game is shorter, and good if you have less time. Drafting also adds time, especially if players are newer to the game and don't know all the cards.

[sim-h]

I don't understand the criticism of the Beginner Corporations. It takes at least one full game to understand how things work and without the BCs the player would just get it all wrong. We've used them for new players and it works well. However first ever game I played, we went with ignoring them and straight into the standard corps, and people made tons of decisions they later regretted due to not understanding how it worked.

The basic game with BCs is just a tutorial mode, but it is very valid and worthwhile - you've just forgotten :)

[AronFJenks]

Originally posted by sim-h:

I don't understand the criticism of the Beginner Corporations. It takes at least one full game to understand how things work and without the BCs the player would just get it all wrong. We've used them for new players and it works well. However first ever game I played, we went with ignoring them and straight into the standard corps, and people made tons of decisions they later regretted due to not understanding how it worked.

The basic game with BCs is just a tutorial mode, but it is very valid and worthwhile - you've just forgotten :)

I don't think I could have possibly forgotten, since neither I nor any of my friends ever used a beginner corporation.

We read the rule book, dealt out two corporations and picked one. I don't understand what's difficult about this. Are any of the corporations in the game so confusing that people need a beginner corporation? Are the cards so confusing that people need to be given ten instead of choosing from a set of ten? I just don't understand.

And, what, having a corporation with no ability and ten random cards is supposed to prevent people from making mistakes and bad decisions? People who have played the game hundreds of times still make mistakes and bad decisions - isn't that the nature of a strategy game? If no one made mistakes or bad decisions, there would be little point in playing, since the entire game would be predetermined by who gets the luckier cards at the optimal times.

Besides that, the criticism of the beginner corporation is that it seems to confuse people. I thought I explained this rather clearly in my above post in which I enumerated the four different ways to play even when using only the base game with no expansions (8 different ways if you include drafting versus non drafting).

The fact that what most people consider a "standard" game is actually called "corporate era" while the extraordinarily rare "+1 producrion" game is called the "standard" game - that's just a terrible choice by the game designers, and shows that they misjudged the intelligence of their future customers by assuming that "corporate era" would be a variant instead of the norm.

Furthermore, why call the full 208 card version "corporate era" when there is already a distinction between playing with "beginner corporations" and regular corporations? That has caused numerous people to think that "corporate era" means "playing with corporations instead of using beginner corporations."

I don't understand the need to dumb down the game. Does Scythe start players out with an ability-less faction? Does 7 wonders start new players out with identical boards that have no unusual features?

As for drafting, I do understand the reasons some people play without drafting, but again, this version is pretty rare; most games on steam are played with drafting. My own opinion - I cannot fathom not using drafting, and I think it was a major blunder by the game designers to make drafting the variant instead of the norm. I wish they had just included drafting as a standard mechanic, and suggested non-drafting for players looking to save time (or for players not bright enough to understand drafting, I suppose).

Again, the fact that they made drafting a variant when it actually turned out to be the preferred method of play shows that they misjudged their target demographic. Imagine if someone suggested playing 7 wonders or blood rage without drafting - the suggestion would be mocked and ridiculed. And if Terraforming mars had always included drafting as part of the core game mechanics, and months later someone suggested, "let's just deal out some random cards and if you get trash while the other players gets gold, too bad," I suspect people would have laughed at that too.

[AronFJenks]

Originally posted by Khashishi:

Multiple ways of playing is a feature, not a bug. While I (and everyone else, it seems) prefer corporate era, the standard game is shorter, and good if you have less time. Drafting also adds time, especially if players are newer to the game and don't know all the cards.

I agree. I'm not sure whether your post was directed toward me, but perhaps there was some confusion - I didn't say multiple versions of playing is a bug, though I would hesitate to call it a "feature" - as explained above, I'd call it a design flaw.

Drafting does add time, but I fail to see the point of playing at all if not using drafting.

As for the shorter game resulting from +1 production - sure, it's shorter; it's also less strategic and (in my opinion) less fun, since it removes many of the best and most interesting cards in the game. I mean, we could start with +3 production if we're really looking for a short game. or start everyone with 100 extra MC.

But, I opt for a different method - if I want a shorter game, I to go to my game shelf and grab... a shorter game. Azul, sagrada, splendor, 7 wonders, whatever. Almost any game I own is shorter than terraforming mars, at least, the way my friends tend to play Tfm.

[RobertShakespeare]

FWIW, when playing in person with most or all of the expansions (i.e. Venus, Preludes, Colonies, and presumably Turmoil), pulling the Corporate Era cards and increasing production can really help streamline the game and really draw out what is great in the expansions without detracting too much from the game. It can also take a 4-5 hour game down to 2-3 hours...

[chaney]

You find adding all the expansions makes the game take more time? That is impressive, your group must be all going with engine building - which I think is great for an interesting play. How long is a base/Corporate Era game for you? We usually plan about 3 hours with 3-4 players, maybe 2 hours with 2 players.

For most plays, I have found that each expansion increases player fuel and shortens the game. Preludes is the clearest example. So I wonder if our group is strange in having expansions shorten play time.