Corporation Ratings (or why Interplanetary Cinematics is so overrated in this community)

[McLeodKG]

Hey, I wanted to make a new post, which is different than all other threads here currently, that are mostly about bugs in game. I do hope that those bugs will be fixed, but I also wanted to contribute this forum with other type of content :)

So, the ratings of corporations in base game, with Tharsis map, the one we play here. When I talked about it with people on streams and with high ranked players, I was pretty surprised with their take on the game. And, I want to give my take on corp ratings here, and hopefully get some replies and other opinions :)

I also noticed that most of the top ranked players are predominantly play 2p here, of course, number of players alters the game, card value, corporation value, strategy etc, so my ratings will be based on 3p games.

I will divide the corporations in five different tiers. Clearly, your starting hand decides the road you will take in the game, and even UNMI can be powerful with certain combos, but I will base my rankings on vacuum and focus mainly on three corps, which I find overrated or underated in the community. But first, the list:

Tier A - Tharsis

Tier B - Saturn Systems, Credicor, Phobolog

Tier C - Mining Guild, Terractor, Helion

Tier D - Interplanetary Cinematics, Thorgate, Ecoline

Tier E - Inventrix, UNMI

Most of the people will probably agree with Tharsis just being the best corp in vacuum (on this board), while Inventrix and UNMI are the two weakest in 3p games (you can probably make the case that UNMI is just tier F corp, alone at the bottom), but the ratings of Phobolog and Interplanetary Cinematics are just different than all other I heard from the online community. For me, IC is borderline C/D corp, just like Thorgate and Helion, while Phobolog is B for sure.

Here is why - Phobolog has the strict road to follow, and the less flexibility you have, the weaker the corp gets. That's completely true. But! If you don't have anything for Phobolog - you won't take it. If you have only one titanium production card, that beats almost everything IC can do with that huge amount of steel.

I feel that most of the people look at that starting money and rate the corp solely based on that. I saw that those people made the case of IC being a good corp, even a B+ corp, because rougly the third of the base deck are building tags, so you can spend that steel on boosting your economy early, and it catapults you towards the builder milestone. A valid point, especially regarding the builder milestone. But, how many of those building tags are really hepful to your economy early? Remember, all that starting money is in your steel, not in MC like Tharsis, Terractor or Credicor, who can play production cards for money. If they are lucky, Tharsis can put two more cities on the board, get 9 MC production, and basically secure both Mayor and Builder. Terractor can play earth tag production cards, which are really cheap for them and so on, but IC must use its steel. Out of all those cards, there is literally ONE card in the deck that immediatelly bursts IC economy instantly, and that is space elevator, for +8 MC production (one titanium and 5 credits from the ability) Other powerful building tags, such as strip mine, or electro catapult require energy building tag from the deck in order to get that online in gen 1. So, I feel that most of the players who are talking about IC flexibility are just - wrong. IC is one of the least flexible corps, because if you don't get those powerful production building tags, and you just play building tags for the sake of playing them at the start, you will just lose against any solid player and that's it. Also, the ability seems powerful, and you can get two more cards to even elevate that to 8 MC cut and 3 free heat, no event card has a building tag on it, and space events are really expensive to IC, especially in the beginning. You will surely benefit from them, but not early game, and you need strong economy right from the start. Dead money in your hand will not help you, because, again, good players will cut you good cards for you in the draft, so if you are just sitting with those 20 steel, waiting for Strip Mine or Space elevator to come, you need an insane amount of luck to get it from the draft, because nobody will pass you that. So, the ability is just not a good combo with that starting money.

I can even make a case with Thorgate Strip Mine 1st turn vs IC Strip Mine, in the best case scenario for it.

Thorgate has 48 starting money and an energy production, which puts them at 59 flat (standard projecting energy is 11), which is more than Credicor for example (nobody looks at Thorgate like that, but you should). Getting a power plant card costs only 1 MC for Thorgate (because they have -3 on energy tags), and Strip Mine costs 25 MC. So, after playing that combo, Thorgate will have 48-26-6 (because he bought those two cards) = 16 MC. Which means Thorgate can potentially buy 5 more cards (which can be powerful) and still play this combo. To IC, the best combo for this would be Geothermal Power, which cost 11 MC, and SM with 25 MC. Both have a building tag, so thats 18 steel, and IC stays with 24 MC to buy 8 more cards.

This is great for IC, no question about it. Probably the best combo you can get with this corp. But compare that to Thorgate. The effect is the same, and IC, which is basically built around that steel, has 8 MC and 2 Steel more than Thorgate after playing it, which isn't that much, when we look at the ratings of those two corps, IC considered a top 5, maybe even a top 3 corp, and Thorgate being in the bottom 5.

There is another thing, which I will use to build a Phobolog case. Almost every space card is great and it gives you points. It is true that there is less space cards compared to building cards. To be precise, in the basic deck, there are 67 building cards (I'm not counting corporation tags), and there are 43 space cards. Out of those 43, only 10 are not giving you at least one VP, or Terraforming Point. And out of those 10, we have two top 5 energy cards in the game, Solar Wind Power and Giant Space Mirror, we have Solleta, Toll Station, Satelites, all can be brutal production cards.Technology Demonstration gives you two cards, Imported GHG and Advanced GHG can be situationally very nice and cheap to play.

I would say that only two cards with a space tag are "bad", but also can be useful - Aerobraked Ammonia Asteroid and Space Mirror.

Of course, IC fans say - space strategy is expensive, you will fall short in most of the games. I disagree there as well. You can get a maximum of -5 cost reduction on building tags. You can get a maximum of -13 reduction on all space cards, which is enormous. And you can get an additional -6 on all space events, which gives you Deimos Down for 12 MC and you get 8 MC from the steel and 3 heat as well (ridicolous!), and you can play Interstelar Colony Ship which gives you four points for an additional -3 for Earth Office, which puts its cost at 2 gold and you get 3 heat. For four points! Of course, you won't get all this in any game, but it is not that rare to get at least 3 rebates on space cards. I got 5 or 6 several times for sure, which is basically a GG to any other corp and tactic.

When we take into account one more thing, that out of those 67 cards, you have cards like Nuclear Power, Carbonate Processing, Food Factory, Underground Detonations (Especially that!), Tropical Resort, Artificial Lake, which are really situational and questionably useful, even if you have an energy, plant, or heat production to play them, and when you have in mind that even great cards, such as Capital, Ore Procession (or any other card which raises Oxygen with Energy) needs something to be played first (mostly a ton of energy), the cost of that effect goes through the roof, so it is not even true that building tags are cheaper. They are cheaper when you look at the basic cost on the card, but you have to count all rebates and other cards you have to play in order to get them, so in 9 out of 10 cases, Space cards will be cheaper and in 10 out of 10 cases, more beneficial than buidling cards.

I would like to hear what you think about this, or try to convince me I'm wrong :D

[Armanz]

Not a pro, but a seasoned veteran of the game and my take has been (since quite a while now) that Tharsis & Ecoline are S tier, with Credicor being A tier and Cinematics being B tier or if you can spend the steel A or S tier. Nothing else in the basegame imho qualifies for S or A tier and is B or below. For the longest time I considered Credicor S tier as well but I have shifted it to A tier instead but I really feel that Credicor and building tag start Cinematics could also be in s tier. Very slight margin there.

Your point about there not being a lot of cards to boost money (or a variation thereof) production but there's plenty of cards that boost energy or heat production that have building tags or place cities (which in turn boosts money). I agree that people tend to overrate starting money over general effect but it's not like Cinematics has a bad effect, it's just not as good as the other 3 corps effects, but its still a very useful one. I agree that it's a very situational corp and that's why I (in general) place it in B but no way I would ever pick Thorgate or Mining Guild (with seeing the cards) over Cinematics (without seeing the cards). And Phoboblog imho is the inferior version of Cinematics because it has a lower potential for the first turn while also having a worse start in a worst case scenario.

[McLeodKG]

Hey, thanks on the reply!

Well, first of all, I don't agree with your take on Ecoline. Ecoline with Protected Habitats is A-/B+ for me. Without it, you probably can't win a game against decent players in draft game. The first problem are asteroids, that are also, I feel, undervalued by most of the players I play online. Smart player can stop Ecoline by targeting its plants, and there are so many cards for messing up the board for them as well. I played a game where Ecoline played designed microorganisms gen 1, got 4 plant production, and failed to even take gardener. They passed me asteroids, I had 2 titanium production from gen 1, one asteroid per turn, and he failed to put a greenery until gen 5, didn't have the money to even standard project a city, to protect the tiles. Even if Tharsis is not around, Ecoline is, to me, a better version of UNMI - you have one road to take, one way to win, by amassing points on Oxygen count and on the board. And it is really hard to do, when you play against competent players.

Credicor is really tough to play. Potentially great, but I also saw people just blowing up their starting money, having no engine and they just end up dead in the game. WIth Credicor, you want to play borderline 20-25 cards, the nearer the cost is to 20 MC, the more you get from it, for obvious reasons.

In the end, you have the point on IC, but even if you are lucky to raise the production to 8 in Gen 1, and basically get a free point every turn, investing in heat engine is just a subpar strategy (if you don't have anything better, well, go for it), compared to the basic economy, by boosting money you get every turn. And again, Asteroids. In four out of five games, Deimos, Big Asteroid, Giant Ice are all played. That's seven temperature degrees boost. With 35 MC invested in 8 heat (and presuming you get +2 on the track), you will get 7 or 8 temperature probably, which is great. But compare that to two best Asteroids, which can be played by for example Phobolog who boosted his economy early. No contest. You will just fall behind in Gen 11+ games. And in Gen 10- games, the difference is lesser, and you are also not that favored to win even those types of games.

[chaney]

"Best" is so situational in this game. Thanks for posting specific cases, they do help evaluate when playing. Who you are playing against and what they have will have big effects. Some players are consistent, but really good players will generate a fencing match every time, generating some epic games.

One thing I wanted to say in this topic is that Ecoline has a huge, obvious target painted on it. In your 3 player game scenario, one of the opponents will often seek that target. The 3rd player will often win.

[madmanatw]

Back before expansions, there was a thread on BGG where a spreadsheet was being kept of games played and which corp won. (The thread continues, I just haven't kept up since all the new corporations came out...) At the time, before any expansions with new corps had come out, the winningest corporation was Tharsis, and the second place was Ecoline.

[Armanz]

The thing you mentioned about Ecoline and Credicor, while being valid it kinda seems like you've been playing against subpar players (at least from the examples you gave). Ecoline will not pass plant destroying cards ever and nobody that knows the game will not invest starting money into engine.
It also depends on which gamemode you play ofc (anything engine boosting tends to be stronger in Corp and imho also more starting money is stronger in Corp as well).
Ofc Ecoline does have that target painted on their back as you guys mentioned but smart players will realize that they can't just focus all their efforts into damaging *1* player if they want to win.

Regarding heat boosting, ofc it's not as valuable but it's also not that expensive. You can get up to like 6 or 7 heat for ~less than 30 money and even if you "only" get like 7 or 8 temp boosts from that heat, that's 7 or 8 points with 7 or 8 bonus income over time.

[Usher]

https://ssimeonoff.github.io/stats those statistics show you what are the corporations statistics in dozens of games.
1 Tharsis
2 Ecoline
3 Minig Guild / Credicor / UNMI
4 Interplanetary / Phobolog / Helion
5 Inventrix / Thorgate

Mining guild seems not to be respected, but it can skyrocket its iron production fast with just the oceans. 2 construction tags give a boost for Constructor Milestone.
Credicor and UNMI can do well with just the standard projects

[aspi]

I strongly disagree with your Phobolog and IC ratings.

Phobo is a one trick pony when played to its strength. Its easy to counter draft, cut the titanium production and jovians. Space events get hacked too, cos they are generally good cards.

There are 50% more building tags in the game than space cards, so its easier to disrupt phobo than IC.

Milestones. Phobo probably has one of the hardest times getting one.

Building tags get you more production for your investment (jovians for example all have a VP included, space events get the TR factored in, so you pay for that too).

And after all IC has an inhouse media group.

[McLeodKG]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von chaney:

"Best" is so situational in this game. Thanks for posting specific cases, they do help evaluate when playing. Who you are playing against and what they have will have big effects. Some players are consistent, but really good players will generate a fencing match every time, generating some epic games.

One thing I wanted to say in this topic is that Ecoline has a huge, obvious target painted on it. In your 3 player game scenario, one of the opponents will often seek that target. The 3rd player will often win.

Yeah, I agree, I mean, this game is so good (currently my number one board game, and I tried out over 70 probably, various kinds), because there is so much variety, even if you play with the same group, and get influenced by some specific playing style. I simply think that there is so many ways to counter Ecoline and you need a very specific set of cards to put you in a commanding position.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von madmanatw:

Back before expansions, there was a thread on BGG where a spreadsheet was being kept of games played and which corp won. (The thread continues, I just haven't kept up since all the new corporations came out...) At the time, before any expansions with new corps had come out, the winningest corporation was Tharsis, and the second place was Ecoline.

I took a look at that thread and it is helpful. But we have to be aware that everybody can post there, and even if you have an enourmous game base, so the results should be statistically valid, the most of those games will certainly be from inexperienced players. I strongly believe that you need at least 50 games to have a good insight on the game.

I'll give you one example - when I started playing this game around two years ago, in my group Helion was regarded as the top corp, along with Tharsis, and it had the best winning percentage at first. But later, we learned how to play the game, so Hellion became a mediocre corp for us, which it is, realistically speaking :)

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Armanz:

The thing you mentioned about Ecoline and Credicor, while being valid it kinda seems like you've been playing against subpar players (at least from the examples you gave). Ecoline will not pass plant destroying cards ever and nobody that knows the game will not invest starting money into engine.
It also depends on which gamemode you play ofc (anything engine boosting tends to be stronger in Corp and imho also more starting money is stronger in Corp as well).
Ofc Ecoline does have that target painted on their back as you guys mentioned but smart players will realize that they can't just focus all their efforts into damaging *1* player if they want to win.

Regarding heat boosting, ofc it's not as valuable but it's also not that expensive. You can get up to like 6 or 7 heat for ~less than 30 money and even if you "only" get like 7 or 8 temp boosts from that heat, that's 7 or 8 points with 7 or 8 bonus income over time.

Always Corp, I don't play standard. Well, the thing is, there are too many of those cards in the deck :)

There are 20 cards in the base deck which can be used for destroying plants or messing around with the board and you can always buy a city as well if you see that Ecoline has a great start. You can't deny all those cards, some will be in the starting had, some will be on the top of the deck for your opponents, and sometimes you will have a really difficult choice to pass an asteroid or something even more powerful.

Until that becomes cheap, (for example, GHG events), the heat track is usually on the middle. You can make a case of investing in that at the start, and it could be a great engine, no question, but even if you get all those cards and raise your heat production, basically one TR for free per round, it is not that cost effective like Tharsis the third city on the map on gen2 and getting 9 MC production. If you don't have anything better - sure. But it is simply not that effective, especially for IC. For Helion, yes.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Usher:

https://ssimeonoff.github.io/stats those statistics show you what are the corporations statistics in dozens of games.
1 Tharsis
2 Ecoline
3 Minig Guild / Credicor / UNMI
4 Interplanetary / Phobolog / Helion
5 Inventrix / Thorgate

Mining guild seems not to be respected, but it can skyrocket its iron production fast with just the oceans. 2 construction tags give a boost for Constructor Milestone.
Credicor and UNMI can do well with just the standard projects

I replied the other user on corp ratings. I agree with Mining Guild. With the right cards, it can be a great corp. The most fun to play, for sure. I don't agree with your take on credicor and UNMI. It seems like it, and you will probably be in the lead at first, but from gen 10+, you will just fall behind. That's the biggest problem for UNMI. Either you finish the game really early, gen 8 or 9, or make an engine which gets you those two TR bumps for cheap every turn (for example, Extreme Cold Fungus + Regolith Eaters Combo), which allows you to play like a "normal" corp, or you finish last in 3p games.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von aspi90:

I strongly disagree with your Phobolog and IC ratings.

Phobo is a one trick pony when played to its strength. Its easy to counter draft, cut the titanium production and jovians. Space events get hacked too, cos they are generally good cards.

There are 50% more building tags in the game than space cards, so its easier to disrupt phobo than IC.

Milestones. Phobo probably has one of the hardest times getting one.

Building tags get you more production for your investment (jovians for example all have a VP included, space events get the TR factored in, so you pay for that too).

And after all IC has an inhouse media group.

There are 43 space cards in the deck and 67 building cards in the deck. The problem is - almost every space card gives you points, or fantastic production (or both). There is basically 2-3 subpar and situational space cards. And there is over 20 subpar or situational building cards. Also, you can get a huge discount on space cards, which you can't have on building cards. Space cards are just better and stronger.

Of course, you can hack some of them, but not all. Like you can't hack all building cards - there is only 24 more buildings in the deck, and around 30, maybe even 40 are not worth hacking anyway, because they are just bad cards, or not useful in that game/moment.

I agree with milestones. Phobolog probably can compete for Terraformer, but it is situational, and in most of the games, all three milestones are claimed before anybody gets to 35 TR. It can maaaaaybe get to Mayor if Tharsis is not in the game, if he gets both Phobos and Ganymede.

You are right for some of the building cards, you get more for your investment, but only for some of them. Giant Space Mirror is one of the best energy producing cards in the game, 3 for 17 credits. And, you should have in mind that you can get a huge rebates on space, so it can be better investment pretty early in the game. Also, Titanium worths more than steel, you should have that in mind as well, so titanium production is the best investment in the game.

I don't agree with media group as well. At the end of the game, you should get a nice rebate on events, but at the start that ability is useless. There is no event with a building tag. IC success is directly influenced by the early use of steel you have.

Like I said, if you just play building tags for the sake of playing them, you will probably get builder, seem like you are in the lead in some gen 3 or 4, but you will heavily fall behind if you didn't use it wisely, on the power cards, and there is less than 10 cards or combos which can put you in the driving seat at the start of the game, and I mentioned all of them.

Everything else might seem as a good investment, but in most of the games won't be enough.

[chaney]

"Tharsis the third city on the map on gen2 and getting 9 MC production."

A generic/standard play as described generates 5 MC production and 9 MC in rebates, not 9 MC production. It also takes 50 MC to do, and doesn't leave much for anything else in those two generations. Yes the 5 points for Mayor are sweet, but that is a lot of opportunity cost and doesn't generate any more income. Of the 41 MC remaining net cost, you'll generate 3 from production generation 1, and 5 per generation after that, so the added income from generations 2-9 leaves you in the red until the END of generation 9, when you'll be 2 MC ahead. If you luck into good placements rebates, it can pay back a bit faster, but it's still a long payback period.

If you get some of the lower cost City cards, great. Research Outpost early is amazing, but doesn't come with inherent income, so you're just at 4 MC income by adding a 3rd standard City. Higher income City cards could get you to 9 MC production, but tend to cost even more including the Power requirements.

Those Cities generally don't generate score directly either. Nobody else is going to put greenery next to them apart from the rare corner case. You can add adjacent greenery later, but 3 Cities is way overkill as a start for those purposes.

One of the BEST features of playing Tharsis is not the income from others placing Cities on the map, but the suppression of their income from others not placing so many Cities.

[aspi]

Getting disounts is not an argument to value the strength of a coopreration.
Every cooperation can play discounts and every coorp could transition to go space, more or less good ofc.
Even if, you wont have the discounts on your first turn(s) where you want to use your titanium to boost your economy.

You also cant value the strength of a cooperation based on what might maybe happen later in the game. You can only compare what you got and with phobo it is a situational, very draw dependent glass canon. Can it be very strong? Sure, but everyone knows whats coming and can play accordingly.

Of course this also counts for IC since you want to use your minerals too, but again, there are round about 30 building cards I would love in my opening hand so you will be more likely to get a couple.
With Phobo you have IO, Asteroid Mining and GIA. Or did I miss a strong "thats why I picked Phobo" turn 1 play?

I dont disagree that space cards are stronger, there is a reason they are more expensive, but early game I dont care how much VP I have.
I care if I produce than my opponents or not. And the chance is higher with building tags. I rather play mine turn 1 than Deimos as an extreme example.

Therefore I disagree with you valuing space cards higher than building tags in the early game, where production matters, as you can easier skyrocket your production with steel than titanium, if we dont talk about getting lucky with jovians here.

And regarding to your media group statement. For me there are more cheap events I would play early than cards that would let me pick phobo above IC. Thats a strong effect, in every stage of the game.

I won 42 out of my last 46 games and iirc I only played phobo once or twice. I dont think that would be the same if I wouldve picked phobo more often, at least I dont think I did wrong by not picking it more often than I did :P

Everyone has their own rankings and thats fine, but for me, in a vacuum, IC is more flexible and has an easier time to do different strats. And having outs is a big plus for me.

[McLeodKG]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von chaney:

"Tharsis the third city on the map on gen2 and getting 9 MC production."

A generic/standard play as described generates 5 MC production and 9 MC in rebates, not 9 MC production. It also takes 50 MC to do, and doesn't leave much for anything else in those two generations. Yes the 5 points for Mayor are sweet, but that is a lot of opportunity cost and doesn't generate any more income. Of the 41 MC remaining net cost, you'll generate 3 from production generation 1, and 5 per generation after that, so the added income from generations 2-9 leaves you in the red until the END of generation 9, when you'll be 2 MC ahead. If you luck into good placements rebates, it can pay back a bit faster, but it's still a long payback period.

If you get some of the lower cost City cards, great. Research Outpost early is amazing, but doesn't come with inherent income, so you're just at 4 MC income by adding a 3rd standard City. Higher income City cards could get you to 9 MC production, but tend to cost even more including the Power requirements.

Those Cities generally don't generate score directly either. Nobody else is going to put greenery next to them apart from the rare corner case. You can add adjacent greenery later, but 3 Cities is way overkill as a start for those purposes.

One of the BEST features of playing Tharsis is not the income from others placing Cities on the map, but the suppression of their income from others not placing so many Cities.

I didn't describe standard play. There are lots of cheap energy and city cards that allow you that kind of play. If you get the cheapest, you can put even four cities on the board. Which pushes you towards both Mayor and Builder. I agree that is not the best cost/effect in the game, I am just answering the take on IC by other users. It is also subpar tactic, but for some reason it is considered great, I don't know why.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von aspi90:

Getting disounts is not an argument to value the strength of a coopreration.
Every cooperation can play discounts and every coorp could transition to go space, more or less good ofc.
Even if, you wont have the discounts on your first turn(s) where you want to use your titanium to boost your economy.

You also cant value the strength of a cooperation based on what might maybe happen later in the game. You can only compare what you got and with phobo it is a situational, very draw dependent glass canon. Can it be very strong? Sure, but everyone knows whats coming and can play accordingly.

Of course this also counts for IC since you want to use your minerals too, but again, there are round about 30 building cards I would love in my opening hand so you will be more likely to get a couple.
With Phobo you have IO, Asteroid Mining and GIA. Or did I miss a strong "thats why I picked Phobo" turn 1 play?

I dont disagree that space cards are stronger, there is a reason they are more expensive, but early game I dont care how much VP I have.
I care if I produce than my opponents or not. And the chance is higher with building tags. I rather play mine turn 1 than Deimos as an extreme example.

Therefore I disagree with you valuing space cards higher than building tags in the early game, where production matters, as you can easier skyrocket your production with steel than titanium, if we dont talk about getting lucky with jovians here.

And regarding to your media group statement. For me there are more cheap events I would play early than cards that would let me pick phobo above IC. Thats a strong effect, in every stage of the game.

I won 42 out of my last 46 games and iirc I only played phobo once or twice. I dont think that would be the same if I wouldve picked phobo more often, at least I dont think I did wrong by not picking it more often than I did :P

Everyone has their own rankings and thats fine, but for me, in a vacuum, IC is more flexible and has an easier time to do different strats. And having outs is a big plus for me.

I agree with you in the start, we just talked about what you can get, and what can make it strong. I said in the first post that even UNMI can be great to play and powerful, with right combination of cards.

Can you name at least some of those 30 building cards you would like to get with IC? I think there are around 8 I would like to get with IC, which can boost me enough in the beginning. And most of them must come in pairs - Geothermal Power and Strip Mine, Power Plant and Electro Catapult, Space Catapult. So cheap energy along with the huge production booster. Cities/Heat Production are subpar, you can make a statement with with Mining tiles, that is a nice booster, but it can be played by any corp turn 1, because it is cheap.

Building tags are simply not that powerful, and by using the starting steel on anything less than the best cards, you will not get a headstart, which is needed for IC.

IO gives 10 production to Phobolog, starting Jovian Strategy, and even if you don't have anything else, as I said, every space card is great to play at any point of the game. There are less space cards than building cards, but there are more good space cards than building cards, as simple as that. And you can't deny all of them.

The game I played today as IC against Phobolog - Space Elevator, Earth Catapult, Towing a Comet and some plant tag in hand. I can't deny all. I will give him two great cards to pick. And after that Tharsis passed me Giant Ice Asteroid, Titanium Mine and Neptune Probe (Science Tag). This is one draft, I had to pass him two great cards. And this is not even rare, it will happen every game. Phobolog WILL GET great cards, one way or another.

IC can get to 10 production if it gets Space Elevator, with Power Plant and with cheapest cities/Fuel Factory or Commercial District. The chances of you getting one card is way higher than getting a set of three or four cards in the starting hand and playing them all Gen 1.

You said that you don't care how much VP you have at the beginning of the game, you care for production. Of course, me too. But the thing is - Space cards have production AND VPs. Every Asteroid is a boost to TR. Every Space tag for Titanium production has points on it. With Phobolog, you can get 10-15 VP easily while building the best economy in the game early. The others might struggle to keep the pace, while having zero or negative VP, it is often the case.

It is not the point that Phobolog is a glass cannon and a one way street in most of the cases. If you don't see anything for it, you won't play it, as simple as that. My point here was that IC is not nearly that good or flexible as it seems at first, and you usually realize that when you start falling behind heavily during the middle of the game. The most cards played will not win the game, the most great cards played are usually the winner.

[davidmleal]

Just the base game, without expansions:

Tier A - Tharsis (42MC + 3 MC)

Tier B - Saturn Systems (42 MC), Credicor (57 MC), Mining Guild (30 MC +10 MC in steel)

Tier C - Terractor (60 MC), Inventrix (45 MC + 3 cards so more 9 MC), Interplanetary Cinematics (30 MC + 40 MC in steel)

Tier D - Ecoline (36 MC), Phobolog (23 MC +40 MC in titanium)

Tier E - Thorgate (40 MC), Helion (42 MC), UNMI (40 MC)



UNMI is hard corp to play, I usually have fun playing with this cooperation, the objective is to try to make TM all generations, having cards that regularly raise the TM, for example cards that use microbes, is a good strategy than holding events every generation in order to create a good economy. Unfortunately due to the lack of economy that this cooperation suffers, long games try to undermine this cooperation.

I don't like playing with Hellion, and I see other players playing badly with her using the power of cooperation to spend the heat on money instead of going up the heat and winning TM. The 8 heat gives 1 TM, that extra TM is more 1 income for futures generation in game, more 1 point for the end of game, and 1 less point that that opponents can do. He has no initial advantage for any millestone, and has no interest in seeing the thermalism award funded because if the heat has reached the top, the player prefers to spend the heat as money. I would say that Hellion seems at first to be a strong cooperation, but in reality the continued use of the power of cooperation tends to harm the player from winning the game.

About Thorgate I won't say much because, I usually always choose the other cooperation, I need to see the initial draft playing cards that can use energy to convert to oxygen, or 2 or 3 cards with energy tags so that I can think about using the power of this cooperation .



Phobolog if you don't have cards that make you have a titanium production, forget about having cooperation is a real trap. In the draft the other players will block these production cards. And for Jovian game for me Phobolog is the smaller sister of Saturn Systems, because even those jovian cards are played Saturn Systems gets a boost in its economy.

Ecoline has the Protected Habitats card in the initial draft, so it will be a spectacular game for Ecoline. Other good cards for Ecoline are Decomposers, Viral Enhancers, Ecological Zone, so I would say it went up to Tier A. But in most Ecoline games it will always be attacked, and the low economy that starts the cooperation will always be a big handicap.


Cinematics is the nightmare for Minning Guild, because it is that cooperation that can easily steal the builder millestone, and it is probably the nightmare for many plant cooperations due to the events that it plays. In a good player this cooperation is super powerful, imagine that you have Media Group or Optimal Aerobraking in this cooperation. I am always afraid when I play against it, because I know the power it has.

Inventrix is weak ???? Are you crazy or what? Starts with 1 science tag, know how difficult it is to get that missing science to play some cards. Start with 45 MC + 3 cards plus 9 MC, but the cards I receive were not good! It does not matter because if you have Mars University it can be easily corrected, in addition to having a great advantage for planner millestone.And I still haven't talked about the power of this cooperation, being able to play cards +/- 2 levels of oxygen, heat and oceans is super powerful. It's being able to play animals a generation earlier, or being able to activate cards ahead of time (those who don't like playing Lake Marineris before they reach the required temperature). Cards that might trash other players for Inventrix still work. The power of this cooperation makes selecting cards differently and I normally prefer to have cards that give points rather than playing cards that are played in the immediate. And if you go to the science game, it's great, which allows you to have lots of discounts on space cards. Very good for animal game especially with Viral Enhancers. For me it is possible to play any type of game this is what I think about the cooperation I am going to start, that I am not dependent on just one style of play, unlike the D and E tiers.


Terractor starts with a lot of money, and has good power and if you join earth office and earth catapult you have a super Terractor. What is the reason for being in tier C, not D or E, as Inventrix allows to play any game strategy and is not dependent on a style of play.


Mining Guild is my favorite, and yes the starting game is niche, but how many times have I been to the science game or jovian game or go to the ground game through the cities. It is super fun, it has a complicated start due to the initial money but if you manage to put titles on steel and titanium locations, in the middle and end of the game nobody can defeat. Super powerful for builder millestone and for mining award.


Credicor is above Terractor, due to the power of his cooperation being better. As you may have noticed by now, I like having my possibilities for all kinds of strategies, and not being dependent on one type of game. And this is something that can be achieved with Credicor.


With Saturn Systems you want to see in the initial draft some cards with jovian or cards that allow you to search for more cards. Only by the simple fact of this cooperation is at game will make other players hack jovian cards, sometimes impairing the choice of these players for the best card for their cooperation.


Tharsis first action build a city. One third of game for mayor is done and whenever an opponent places a city, Tharsis’s economy increases. My recommendation against Tharsis is not to build cities. The biggest mistake I see players with Tharsis doing is raising oxygen through cards instead of putting greenery in game. Super powerful if they let their economy grow.

[McLeodKG]

Thorgate starts with 48 gold and one energy production. Which means it has 59 gold, because that's the value of power plant standard project. In terms of gold, if you have only one card to use that energy, that puts Thorgate to more money than Credicor has.

It is not a powerful corp, but it is really underated and certainly much stronger than Inventrix in vacuum. First, everyone wants to play science tags, because of the multipliers that give great bonuses. If you have 2-3-4 tags in hand with Inventrix already, that's great and you don't need that additional tag - every corp can play it. Also, those three additional cards worth 9 MC, but when we have in mind that those cards are random dealt, in 9 out of 10 cases won't fit in your hand. Another thing is the corp effect. It is clearly the worst among all corporations. In most of the games you won't be able to use that effect, or if you do, you won't get a huge bonus by doing so. If we take a look at heat counter, it is only two bumps, which will often get online in the same gen where you used the effect, so it is practically worthless. You can get more on oxygen or oceans, especially for the cards such as Kelp Farming, but you will probably get that online 1 or 2 gen earlier at most, so you won't rack up more than 2-3 points on it.

Every other effect in the game, even Thorgate's, is more useful. Even if you become a super Inventrix, with +-4 effect, you probably won't get a huge bump to your engine with that. That's why Inventrix is underwhelming.

Inventrix does give you that flexibility only on paper - you don't have enough money to do all that you are saying and you will realistically speaking fall behind in most of the games.

[Armanz]

Quick sidenote here: 1 energy production for standard project may cost 11 MC, but there's no way that's the instrinsical value. You're never gonna spend 11 MC for that except if you have a powerful card that has -1 or more.

[aspi]

Every power card you can play without restrictions as power is the most valuable production.
Then every card that gives you steel or titanium production, even heat production. And not to forget some of the best science cards.
I dont feel like naming them all, just have a look https://ssimeonoff.github.io/cards-list

That is just wrong on your part, that building cards arent as strong. If we solely look the the production values they offer, I rather play titanium mine than vesta, I prefer fueled generators over asteroid mining and I also prefer deep well heating over the asteroid space event. They offer you similar production but are way cheaper thus you can play more cards.

Yes, IO is the best start you can have, but that is one card in the deck, again a combiniation of one of the several good building tags is more likely and more likely to get in following drafts.
And when playing IO you are the definition of a glass cannon, either you get your space events and jovians or you dont. I certainly now what to hack when I see my opponent played IO.

You didnt understand me here, of course VPs are great. But every card follows a strict set of rules on how they are priced. A VP or a TR step increases the price of a card, thats why most of the production building tags have the edge in the beginning of the game when you just look on how much production you get for your money. (titanium mine vs vesta).

Of course, when I dont see any good cards for phobo I dont take them, thats true for every coorp though. But what does this mean for a coorp? Does this make a coorp better or worse? For me its worse. With phobo you rely more on cards than any other coorp and this makes the coorp very situational and inflexible. You can have the best start with IO and still get last. Not long ago there was a good example on stream for that.
And even the developer said, that IC is way more flexible than phobo. Since with phobos having the lowest starting cash it has the least flexibility regarding what to and where to go.

I dont see a point of disussing this more, since it seems that we both have different point of views and value things/cards differently. For me IC is not A tier but B or C tier and I value IC higher than phobo.

I think, and I refering to your tilte here, you are just overrating phobo here since I havent see them rated that high anywhere else (in the base game!).