It all boils down to Ions

[Mortal]

Hello,

After many hours of playing Cosmoteer and reaching close to endgame, it honestly boils down to Ion kiting battles. Nothing of the current arsenal comes even close to the power of Ion beams (maybe railgun is the closest, its not even that close to Ions, however, it needs micro management to be efficient).

The problem I noticed with anything other than the Ions is that the defense options are WAY too good compared to the offence options (minus the Ions ofc). Things, for example, like deck cannons, that melts and eats through ammo/resources just to be countered easily with defenses with almost no efforts.

The way I see it to improve everything (besides Ions) is to add more automation (through unlocks or technology), and also, review their consumption for ammo/resources and their range/power.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.

[Danthar]

I agree. End game. When facing up against mass arrays of nuke launcher and Ion beams. Or even normal HE missiles. Normal defensive options become ineffective. Your only option is to go long range.

[DatPinkPuffball]

It's why I'm looking forwards to future updates, since there will more than likely be more options added. Boarding's something I've got a big eye on, drone carriers too. Some modules like the Cloak module would be pretty handy. I'd reckon giving heavier projectiles more health could make them harder to counter with Point Defence.

[Quiximo]

Congrats on working out a strong pve tactic, but ions aren't alone in their PVE punishing power. Believe it or not, a clever builder/pilot can crush most of the content with some skill and ingenuity utilizing a wide variety of weapons.

Examples of other strong pve setups are rail fans, rail kites, missile orbiters, fast laser walls, fast cannon walls, mass deck guns, ion orbiters/rammers and a plethora of multi-ship flanking strategies.

[Benjamin]

for me the total OP strat appeared when i discovered if you specify an attack angle the two ships get into an endless spin.

ever since that i send in my first ship to engage front-on at a ~45 degree angle.
i wait for them to spin 180 degrees then my back ship jumps in; one (big) volley of deck cannons up the rear-end and most of the inbuilt ships just melt

if the battle doesn't end immediately, all three ships go into a spin with the enemy getting pummeled from both ends.

if there are any on-looking enemy ships their attacks are not very effective against the spinning mess that is going on in front of them

the galaxy i'm in is level 17 i think which seems like late-game, but maybe there is more to come that i'm not aware of yet

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Mortal:

...
The problem I noticed with anything other than the Ions is that the defense options are WAY too good compared to the offence options (minus the Ions ofc). Things, for example, like deck cannons, that melts and eats through ammo/resources just to be countered easily with defenses with almost no efforts.

The way I see it to improve everything (besides Ions) is to add more automation (through unlocks or technology), and also, review their consumption for ammo/resources and their range/power.

What do you guys think?

Thanks.

IMO:

Ions are great. But, they're really great because they can allow the player to stay at range, with the only other options to afford that are Railguns, with low their RoF, or a mix of Missile salvos, which may have to deal with PD from multiple ships.

AI ships don't care what they look like, either. Players kind of do. That may introduce complications regarding min/max'ing.

I still can't get past Nuke RNG. Sometimes I engage just right and don't even get my paint scratched. Others... it's a reload.

IMO - More than one ship and good ranged damage is the way to go. If it works to keep your junk from getting blow'd up, it's good. Go with that.

[m4rcus]

arent ions only good if you can have upfront battles? (so yeah prolly most pve ones). if you have the variant with a deep shaft in the middle circling is a really good counter to that. the ship never manages to turn well enough to keep ion'ing. but if someone puts an equal amount of other weapons up as others stack ions i think it would be even?

long story short: i dont think they would be that good in pvp :<

[tebow baggins]

i enjoy the fireworks of cannons rails flak and nukes, but i'm only at 610 fame 7-9 zone. it has come to the point where i will need to build a new ship which will probably be ion but i just dont enjoy watching ion much.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Originally posted by SCARE:

i enjoy the fireworks of cannons rails flak and nukes, but i'm only at 610 fame 7-9 zone. it has come to the point where i will need to build a new ship which will probably be ion but i just dont enjoy watching ion much.

You could have fun building a bunch of ion fighters that can shoot a beam of their own but also help focus beams from other ships into mega deathray constellations coming from any angle. :)

[PyroMancer]

I think a lot of the weapons need some retooling. For example I posted about how projectile weapons have a serious issue with ammo usage and storage. Further down in the thread I actually put in the number to prove my point One Deck gun will use 1 Ammo stack every 2.5 seconds and 8 Deck guns will burn through a full 4x4 cargo hold of ammo in 5 SECONDS.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/799600/discussions/3/3488628040295586813/

While I mainly focus on the ammo issue I do think that they also need a range increase, but that is true of laser weapons as well and the topic was on the balance issue between the two in terms of combat sustainability.

The main issue with the Ion I feel is it's Range, If it had a much steeper falloff on damage I think it wouldn't be so bad. I've tested beams against solid walks of armor in creative and it barely seems to slow down how fast it's cutting through them at it's max range. The other part of this I think is due to the fact that other weapons have such a short range.

In general here's what I'd like to see balance wise on weapons

Ion Beam - Increase Falloff rate so that it's more like 10% at max range instead of 50%
All Cannons - Reduce Ammo Use per shot, Increase Ammo Stack Size, Increase Range
All Lasers - Increase Range
All Missiles - Increase Ammo Stack Size in Cargo
Disruptor - Great for their niche, no change.
Railgun - Haven't bothered with cause don't like their mechanic of needing charges at each section, but also probably needs it's ammo use reduced like cannons.

Defense weapons
PD - Seem fine
Flak - Reduce Ammo use per shot.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by PyroMancer:

...
In general here's what I'd like to see balance wise on weapons
...

Just my "IMO" too: :)

Ion's "cost" is the space needed for a powerful configuration, Crew to both operate and fuel it, hungry power requirements and a narrow arc of fire.

These are meaningful things in terms of "game." If it was weaker, then... nobody would bother with going to the trouble to incur all those costs for their uber Ion bloc. :) If you wanted to nerf anything, look to the costs as that's where the downside is already designed to be.

Tactically, an Ion Ship can either be a sniper, requiring some reversed engines to stay at range and NOT assured to be effective against more than one faster ship, or it can be a Rammer, needing speed in the other direction. The problem with the latter is that it then needs a buncha fat shields to survive long enough to drill through the enemy ship.

Note: One big hit that takes out part of the chain of Ion guns means the whole weapons system just got reduced to a nifty looking cigarette lighter... One can make some adjustments on the fly, but lost Crystals/Ions are just plain gone for that fight for a ship likely built around that weapon system.


I think the reason Deck Guns eat up ammo is because they'd have to have an additional ammo type added to the game if they didn't have that way to add "cost" for the benefit they provide. (Which is substantial, btw, since it's the only weapon that can be mounted like that.) That would mean additional storage requirements would be what would have to be sacrificed. In that case, increase their range a "little bit" to compensate and make them consume an "equitable" amount of their own special ammo separate from other cannon.

PD have some decent energy costs, but I haven't looked at it specifically in detail. Seems like a bunch, though. To buff: Let them hold three battery charges instead of two. That's it, good to go.

Flak is good for what it is - A multipurpose weapon. However, defensively, against some missiles (I'm looking at you, nukes) it sucks. It's RoF seems like garbage. To buff, allow it increased rate of fire when used exclusively in Defensive Mode, reduce its area of effect... maybe? Or, just nerf Nukes... I'm good with that. :)

Railguns don't need ammo reduction - They're slow firing, for the most part. And, if one is relying on faster RoF, one likely needs some EMP/Disruptors to do some of that work. Otherwise, I don't know why a Railgun would need faster RoF if it's tearing up huge blocks of armor already. (Given a decent Railgun size)

[Xenomorph]

I don't really know what what "reaching close to end game" means as for an ion build, but i can imagine it. Something you do but really sucks because it's so cheesy, but it takes FOREVER against shield ships. If it ever does it.
This is not a balance issue, it's a tolerance issue. Like, set the "ion" ship to kill something, go do something else and check later.
In the meanwhile, we can build laser or cannon ships that will wreck face in a very satisfying way.
It's tough and rough. Something will ALWAYS be op, no matter what. But if OP means one hour instead if a couple minutes, you get your balance.

[Flukeyluke]

i would love a "mirror" hull section, Same hp as armor but with insanely high 95% damage resist vs ion beams. could even give them negative damage resistance vs explosive weapons to balance them out so they are only good vs ion beams

[Hyndis]

Different armor types would be very interesting. Reactive armor vs nukes and reflective armor vs ion beams.

That said there still needs to be something for the side mounted guns. Most of the guns in the game are side mounted, only buildable on the sides of ships. The only way to protect these is with shields and point defense guns, both of which are woefully inadequate in late game. Any attack will instantly punch through your shields and PD no matter how much you have, and because shields are power hungry you need reactors close to the surface of the ship making it highly vulnerable to penetrating attacks.

Compare this to nukes or beams and you just build a solid wall of 25-30 tiles deep of armor. Thats it. Its simpler, its cheaper, and its more effective. You have zero risk of lost crew, you can eat a lot of nukes to the face, and repairs are effectively free because armor only costs steel.

[m4rcus]

Originally posted by Xenomorph:

...it takes FOREVER against shield ships. If it ever does it.

you arent limited to a single weapon you know? disrupters and emp rockets exist :<

[Hyndis]

Take a look at the screenshots submitted by players for the game. Overwhelmingly its ion beam builds. Some missile builds. There are almost zero broadside blaster or cannon builds. Its probably 85% ion beams, 13% missiles, and 2% blasters/cannons.

That has to say something about balance between weapons. Its clear ion beams are far and away the best weapon in the game.