Full Automization?

[Buntkreuz]

Is that planned?
I hoped to be able to create a full factory in my ships.
You know, moving resources with belts into production, have it thrown out on another conveyor, moved to a cannon, loaded in with an inserter, Crew only needs to aim and shoot.
Would increase firerate and be more fun to design a ship for that.

Sadly the current conveyors are only for people.

It would also add some options for fun stuff to do.
Like lets say massproducing not only ammo but maybe other usable things in the world, maybe stuff that will be added later, like drones, droids, energy cells etc.
The game also has the basics for that already. What it needed were some shipparts for inserters, sorting and transporting.
It mustnt be as complex and big as your typical automization games.
For example a typical filter and sorting machine could be one square big, people load stuff into it and it sorts out the stuff you set it to sort.
Belts could be one square big too and inserters are basically just connectors that have a belt go in and have the item be added to the machine on the other side (basically a bucket insertion).
No need for moving parts or inserters moving around.
Mostly just moving resources from point A to B via machines in the most simple way to automate the production facilities already in the game.

[Morkonan]

I really doubt the dev would want to go down to that level of detail in regards to production/crafting chain mechanics. That's more of a "Factorio-ish" sort of thing.

At the end of the day, Cosmoteer is really a ship-v-ship space combat game.

You can do more with production chains than would have thought, at least in terms of feed material, storage, output and further chaining the goods and moving them around, but if the game went deep into materials and the like there's be little room for combat.

[Buntkreuz]

Nah

[umop-apisdn]

Originally posted by Magnum Opus:

Sadly the current conveyors are only for people.

The people move the stuff. Where's the issue?

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by umop-apisdn:

Originally posted by Magnum Opus:

Sadly the current conveyors are only for people.

The people move the stuff. Where's the issue?

They fly spaceships.
I expect them to be intelligent enough to have one person place an object on the conveyor and another picking it up at the other end, instead of having 30 people do the task 2 can do.

[umop-apisdn]

Originally posted by Good_Oatmeal:

There is no issue. There is just a cool alternative way of doing things. So people could have a ship that is more designed around crew moving things, or a ship with less crew and more designed around the ship moving things.
In a more crew themed ship there would be more corridors for the crew and more crew needed to do more important things like moving items, where as in a more automated ship there would be less crew that remain in smaller parts of the space ship. However there would be more automated systems handling the transport of items. So it would be a design philosophy difference. No issue at all in any way.

Except that our "blowy-uppy spaceship game" is severely curtailed by the limitations that fame places on crew (by default, and at "normal" difficulty). Adjusting fame/crew is in the "advanced settings" section, where it specifically states that adjusting those settings is playing in a way the developer does not intend.

Allowing more to be accomplished with less crew therefore flies in the face of the developer's expressed intent.

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by umop-apisdn:

Originally posted by Good_Oatmeal:

There is no issue. There is just a cool alternative way of doing things. So people could have a ship that is more designed around crew moving things, or a ship with less crew and more designed around the ship moving things.
In a more crew themed ship there would be more corridors for the crew and more crew needed to do more important things like moving items, where as in a more automated ship there would be less crew that remain in smaller parts of the space ship. However there would be more automated systems handling the transport of items. So it would be a design philosophy difference. No issue at all in any way.

Except that our "blowy-uppy spaceship game" is severely curtailed by the limitations that fame places on crew (by default, and at "normal" difficulty). Adjusting fame/crew is in the "advanced settings" section, where it specifically states that adjusting those settings is playing in a way the developer does not intend.

Allowing more to be accomplished with less crew therefore flies in the face of the developer's expressed intent.

No offense but i hope this game is just a drastically reduced proof of concept right now, that is supposed to change majorly.
It basically just works as some sort of stripped down ship designer with some additional marginally working functions.
Pretty much all the mechanics in the game as of now are more proof of concept placeholders than actually working.
My expectation is not "this will stay this way so we cant add anything new that doesnt fit", but rather "This will change majorly anyway, so theres enough room to improve and add new things to the existing systems, to flesh them more out."

You seem to be stuck at the former as if this was a finished version of a game.
Im more looking into the latter.
Besides: The game is listed under the steam category "Automization" along with Factorio and the like.
So one could expect aspects of these games to apply.

And why not?
At last, Asteroid Mining and processing materials into products IS an intended feature and playstyle and im not seeing why this shouldnt receive more attention.
You might want to space around with your mighty lasership, but i personally would prefer to build my own spacestation with automated production facilities, a few mining vessels and a transporter, to sell the stuff i mass produced.
This IS already part of the game, not me injecting stuff that has no relation to it.
Its one playstyle offered by the game, only that this particular playstyle is currently underdeveloped and i would like to see it more fleshed out.
Clearer?

Cosmoteer is NOT only a "blew up spaceship" game.
Thats just one playstyle.
You can play this game very well without any combat whatsoever.
And whether you now use conveyors and inserters/sorters in your Lasership shooting at others or in your mining station, is your choice.


But i imagine my crew to pick up resources from an asteroid, moving them to an inserter possibly already from outside the ship, pour the carried resources into the inserter, which then pours it on a conveyor to transport it automatically to the respective facility.
Instead of carrying it manually into the ship, taking their spacesuit off, walking through the vessel to the storage, drop it there, get back and put spacesuit on, move outside to mine more, have another guy pick it up, moving it to a facility.
Inefficient mining process.
Its also relatively simple.
It needs one new conveyor type (able to move resources, not people), a sorter station an inserter module.
Well and ofcourse the necessary adjustments for existing modules or facilities to work with them.

With that addition, the playstyles of mining and producing would be far more fleshed out and fun, because it allowed me to invest my resources into expanding my efficiency of what i do, instead of just being able to add moah Weponz.

My expectation for this game goes beyond just building a combat ship.
I hope you will also be able to create research/science ships later, focussing on science.
Transportation ships, Spacestations with different purposes (production, trading, housing people and leisure), Mining Ships and ofcourse combat ships.
That needs the games current systems to be fleshed out more.
In terms of production gameplay, automization modules will need to be implemented, just like courier jobs need to be implemented to make transportation ships worthwhile and fun or flesh out the crew mechanics for leisure ships.
The game has the basics of all these things already, but needs to expand them.

[Buntkreuz]

I think "Spacestation", as a playstyle, right now fails a bit to deliver because it still has too few modules to make it work fine.

I tried it, you can make it work, even fun, but it doesnt have all the necessary stuff you would need.

For example theres no docking mechanic, there are no small one person ships (to dock on your station) or drones, theres no leisure activities and you cant get the AI ships to aknowledge your Station as a Trading Hub.
So all you can do is create a station like vessel and use it as a production facility, add tons of storage, armor etc and then go using ships to mine asteroids.

Right now the games mechanics are there but too limited.
Thus i hope it will receive more modules to allow these playstyles to be properly utilized, like actual ship docking so people dont have to put spacesuits on to board a station.
Probably once the implement a boarding process (also to take over enemy ships).

Sadly, right now, you cant do the full Homeworld Mothership Experience.
And i hope at one point it at least has all the things in place to make it theoretically possible.
I personally would like to control a Spacestation while a friend of mine manages the spaceships.
He pirates all the stuff and gets it to me, where i resell it somewhere else or produce new stuff for him, maybe build new ships, form our own faction, take over the galaxy.
Perfect arrangement.

It would be a drastical waste if ths game ended up only as a glorified combat ship constructor without using the potential it has and already laid the foundations for.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Magnum Opus:

...
No offense but i hope this game is just a drastically reduced proof of concept right now, that is supposed to change majorly.
It basically just works as some sort of stripped down ship designer with some additional marginally working functions.
Pretty much all the mechanics in the game as of now are more proof of concept placeholders than actually working.
My expectation is not "this will stay this way so we cant add anything new that doesnt fit", but rather "This will change majorly anyway, so theres enough room to improve and add new things to the existing systems, to flesh them more out."

There's nothing wrong with fleshing out or enhancing the content that is in the game, even adding new content if it is complimenary.

How far into the game have you played?

The reason I ask that is because everything in the game is focused on progressing the player through more difficult combat, more dangerous ships, more tense combat conditions level by level.

That is a major motivator, and reward, for the player to redesign/design their ship to meet those challenges and overcome them.

There isn't much support for other gameplay that is not focused on that.

So, see that as evidence of the developer's design intent. There's a little bit of spice, here and there, but it's very light. Trading, production, resource gathering, etc. That could be expanded a bit, but it shouldn't rise to the point where overshadows the game's primary focus.

Most of the mechanics in the game aren't "placeholders," they're a framework to build on. Some could be built on with very little work and minor additions that would enhance their appeal without retooling anything. That's pretty much the definition of E.A. :)

The announced plans will make some changes available, like the "war mechanic" that's been brought up in devblog/posts. That would add some additional focus/engagement/motivation for combat and giving the player more of a goal to reach. That directly supports combat, so it's a no-brainer to add.

A complex production system, though, starts to push further into adding assets that don't really serve the game's current gameplay as well as "not adding more of them" would. Could some be added without introducing a bit of a grind? Sure. Could they be added to promote a "different way to play the game." Not easily, no. What would be the point other than "production mechanics for their own sake?"

I love production, crafting, building and management games, too. So, I do see the appeal in such systems and could see a game "something" like this one incorporating a deeper scale there. But, for this game? I don't see this being something worth being in vanilla play as making it have valuable gameplay goals would require a lot more work that might be better done in a different game.

Just my opinion, that's all. I'm not against some additions, but I am against anything that pushes the game's current focus too far afield from its current design.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Full automation of systems with belts and/or inserters seem like a very unlikely addition to the game for one simple reason. The central challenge of progression is based on how large your crew is. Getting enough resources to build masive ships is very easy, getting enough crew to effectively operate a massive ship however is a bit of a challenge.
What you are suggesting would basically have the effect of drastically lowering the difficulty setting by reducing the amount of crew needed for a big ship, so no. That will most likely not be happening in the future. (If you want to play easy mode there are settings you can enable to do just that.)

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by morrganstain:

Full automation of systems with belts and/or inserters seem like a very unlikely addition to the game for one simple reason. The central challenge of progression is based on how large your crew is. Getting enough resources to build masive ships is very easy, getting enough crew to effectively operate a massive ship however is a bit of a challenge.
What you are suggesting would basically have the effect of drastically lowering the difficulty setting by reducing the amount of crew needed for a big ship, so no. That will most likely not be happening in the future. (If you want to play easy mode there are settings you can enable to do just that.)

Actually thats not a point against adding it.
Specifically because the current implementation of hiring crew is incredibly limited, because you run into a brickwall at some point.
Which means, that additional means to automate processes like production of items or harvesting, is somehting where you would be able to reduce the necessary amount of crew, to make it free for other projects.
Especially since you need more crew for a larger fleet of smaller ships (mining ships, delivery ships, traders, production stations etc.).
It basically would become your mid to lategame tool to avoid the brickwall you otherwise hit with the current system, that by all means, isnt necessarily good anyway.

In that sense, Automation and Drones would actually complement the design, not counteract it.
And i believe that Drones are already a planned addition, at least i read about that somewhere (roadmap?).
So your argument is already counter proved by that very fact Drones would be added.
Drone are literally means to automate certain actions like harvesting and thus would have the same effect as adding a few belts and inserters.
They would simply be a way to reduce your need of crew for every minor action an automated system could do.
Make some parts somewhat expensive to build and its also balanced.


Regarding Morkonnans comment, i think Good_Oatmeal summed up my thoughts about that quite well.
The game has clearly all foundations going to be more than just a combat oriented game and progression must not be combat focussed.
Imagine the developer would simply add delivery missions that give you reknown by completing them.
Boom, suddenly you could progress through the game by simply having the fastest ship, and not the strongest and by creating your own delivery company.
Add some complexity to that and you have a new way to play the game.

See the game has all systems in place to be a space game where you can build a spaceship or spacestation that could do many different things in an interesting way.
You could play it combat focussed, do delivery and logistics, trading focussed, mining and production, exploration and science focussed (add researches, xeno research and planetary exploration quests alongside unexplored parts of the created galaxy), Pirate and Blackmarket Trader and Ship Manufacturer.
It already has everything necessary to expand the game into these areas.
All that is needed are some additions to allow you to fully do that.
Some more modules, ship parts and ofcourse other content.

But just seeing this as another game to just build a ship to shoot other ships sounds super boring and what i see from this game and its roadmap, thats by far not the intention.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

That is

Originally posted by Magnum Opus:

because you run into a brickwall at some point.

This is flat out false. To begin with some people are playing this game just fine at max difficulty without running into a brick wall regarding crew. It is a limiting factor yes, it is in fact the only really limit holding you back once you start getting into mid to late game.

More importantly however how limited crew are is entierly in each players hand. Want it to be more lenient than "normal", ok there is a setting for that. Want to not be constrained by crew at all, ok there is a setting for that.

The problem with the suggestion of allowing for automated systems to eliminate crew jobs is that changes the difficulty setting for EVERYONE, not just for you. Its totally fine if you feel you cant play the game on normal difficulty settings. Its your game and your free time, do with it whatever you want. Just dont try to force your difficulty preferences on everyone else because not everyone has a problem building an effective ship with the crew available to them

[JimmyTheSaltyMelon]

NO

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by morrganstain:

That is

Originally posted by Magnum Opus:

because you run into a brickwall at some point.

This is flat out false. To begin with some people are playing this game just fine at max difficulty without running into a brick wall regarding crew. It is a limiting factor yes, it is in fact the only really limit holding you back once you start getting into mid to late game.

More importantly however how limited crew are is entierly in each players hand. Want it to be more lenient than "normal", ok there is a setting for that. Want to not be constrained by crew at all, ok there is a setting for that.

The problem with the suggestion of allowing for automated systems to eliminate crew jobs is that changes the difficulty setting for EVERYONE, not just for you. Its totally fine if you feel you cant play the game on normal difficulty settings. Its your game and your free time, do with it whatever you want. Just dont try to force your difficulty preferences on everyone else because not everyone has a problem building an effective ship with the crew available to them

So its not flat out false, its actually right because its a limiting factor.
When i started playing it was basically the thing holding you back.
Automated systems would improve majorly and crew needs a balance pass anyway with new systems, especially once drone ships come into the game or boarding.
But they wont be able to avoid it if they want to actually flesh out production of items.
They kind of have all the basic things already there, just no automated transporting system for items.

If implementing a conveyor with inserters for items breaks the crew system, then it wasnt a good system to begin with.

[⇧⇨⇩⇩⇩]

Yes there is one limitation preventing you from building such large ships that combat is trivialized.
You claimed that is a brick wall, that is a false claim. Many players are perfectly capable of beating the game at the higher difficulties without issue.
You dont haveto play on that difficulty, there are several options to give yourself easier or unlimited access to crew without you trying to force combat being trivialized for everyone.
Just tweak the settings untill they are easy enouh for your liking.

[Buntkreuz]

Originally posted by morrganstain:

Yes there is one limitation preventing you from building such large ships that combat is trivialized.
You claimed that is a brick wall, that is a false claim. Many players are perfectly capable of beating the game at the higher difficulties without issue.
You dont haveto play on that difficulty, there are several options to give yourself easier or unlimited access to crew without you trying to force combat being trivialized for everyone.
Just tweak the settings untill they are easy enouh for your liking.

It is a brickwall in terms of expansion of your crew and you deemed automization as an impactful feature on crew.
Brickwall does not define you cant beat the game.
But crew and how you get it is certainly a heavily limiting factor in the game that you cant bypass and there are NO alternatives to it.

I also dont see how automization would have a major impact on the crew anyway.
I mean yes, you would spare crew, you then dont need to do certain tasks because they are automated.
As does a Mining Laser. Boohyaka.
And? Its a sci fi game. Why are they carrying ammo shells to a cannon by hand anyway?
Isnt a cannon in a spaceship supposed to be loaded automatically?
It could, if you invested material, money and research into the systems to make it automated.
Wouldnt that be cool?

Again, this game is in early access and will receive some gamechanging additions anyway.
You hold on a current system as if the game was meant to stay in the shape it is right now.
It wont.

Maybe instead of only being pessimistic and seeing problems to a balance that is irrelevant right now anyway, with 90% of the systems missing, you could instead come up with some fruitful ideas on how automization could work well and benefit the game.
Just saying "doesnt work right now" is no valid argument at all.
Its out the window right at the moment you enter the shoppage.

But i appreciate your enthusiasm to discuss it in a mature way.