Unclear Lore - Did EW2 end after the ceasefire?

[Green Epaulette]

After we finish the game, the narrator tells us the ceasefire put an abrupt end to the Second Europan War. There was a death toll of ~10 million, and he mentions historians later surmised a continuation of the war would've drastically reduced Europa's population. Thus, this leads us to believe the conflict ended there.

Yet, in Valkyria Chronices 2, we're told the war continues, and that nothing really changed.

So... are we to assume the PSP titles (VC2 and VC3) never happened/were retconned?

[ukie]

Originally posted by Erik:

It went over the top with VC3 when you could activate valkyria mode :P.
(although I find that an amazing feature tbh).

That, and Imca's High Noon... I meant, Open Fire, and Kurt's Direct Command... I think I used both more often than Riela's SP.

[Green Epaulette]

Originally posted by jeffers0329:

There's a newpaper article at the end of the game that mentions that the ceasefire is a temporary thing

Depends on how you interpret that article. The publication reads:

In the wake of the ceasefire's signing, the prevailing voice is one of relief- at an end to the violence, to the chaos, and to the war, even if the agreement is only temporary.

Though global relations remain tense, and some were hoping for righteous vengeance rather than compromise, most citizens can only react with joy to the end of this gruelling conflict.

Many civilians are overjoyed at the prospect of seeing their loved ones again, as soldiers across the continent slowly make their ways home.

However, these young heroes still have a job to do. The conflict with the Empire destroyed many things we took for granted, and it will take hard work to see everything rebuilt.

That, then, is the job of the youth- to restore their homes to their former glory. A newly appointed Federation minister will be overseeing their efforts, and guiding the nations' relief efforts.

A world at war thinks from moment to moment, thinking only of the present. As we settle now into peace, we must look to the future.

I don't know you, but this doesn't sound at all like the war will continue any time soon. Yes, they say peace may only be temporary, but it also mentions how soldiers on both sides are being demobilised, and how reconstruction has already begun in both the Federation and Empire.

In other words, this article says the war is over.

[petran79]

One reason I liked VC1 more was that it explored the lore and politics of the affected sides to a much greater degree. VC4 while featuring more missions, it lacks in expanding what was built in the first game. Eg VC1 featured Gallia's sovereigns and the Empire's successor to the throne. VC4 does away will all of those elements, featuring just Belgar as the most important figure from the Empire and none from the Federation.

One reason probably is that VC1 featured the experienced producer and director of Sakura Taisen games, that had a unique presentation and lore, while VC4 had new staff without any such credentials.

[ukie]

Originally posted by Erik:

Timeline:

http://valkyria.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Originally posted by James Koach:

I don't think the end of the war trivialises everything Squad E did; if anything, their efforts in driving a nuke straight into the Imperial Capital surely hastened the signing of that ceasefire. But what did that ceasefire accomplish?

If anything, their efforts would definitely be trivial if the war had resumed in 1936/37. But we don't know if that's canon anymore, since it would appear Sega can't get its facts straight on the matter.

Here's the thing: Operation Northern Cross started in March 1935 EC, Siegval Line broke in September according to the timeline (VC4 chapter 4), and Maximillian's death in early October corresponds to chapter 5 in VC4 time-wise. That means the original cause of Claude and other Gallian recruits in Squad E, which was to save their homes from the Empire, already happened by chapter 5 without any input or influence whatsoever from them.

VC4's devs not only want us to set aside the fact that almost the entirety of VC1's timespan occurred during chapter 2 to chapter 4 of VC4 and not think about why the regular Federation army apparently only had like 3 noteworthy battles during that time going by Claude's diary, they also want us to believe that all the countries under the Atlantic Federation unilaterally gave the go-ahead to launch an all-out offensive campaign and move deep into Empire territory while over 30% of the Federation territory was still under Imperial occupation. Of course, that operation failed spectacularly by chapter 6 and Squad E was left stranded as the pretty much only functional unit left in Imperial territory for 2/3 of its story.

The whole reason why VC4 feels trivial is precisely because
1. Claude and co.'s original cause for joining was already realized and carried out by the Gallian militia and they missed out on all the fun.
2. The operation plans on the Federation side appeared completely illogical and idiotic. Instead of reclaiming lost territory, they massed all the troops available and threw them into the Empire at the risk of giving further ground on their own lands and having the supply to Northern Cross cut off. Chapter 6 and on in VC4 literally did not need to happen in the first place if the commanding officers from the Federation were not collectively brain dead.

Originally posted by petran79:

One reason I liked VC1 more was that it explored the lore and politics of the affected sides to a much greater degree. VC4 while featuring more missions, it lacks in expanding what was built in the first game. Eg VC1 featured Gallia's sovereigns and the Empire's successor to the throne. VC4 does away will all of those elements, featuring just Belgar as the most important figure from the Empire and none from the Federation.

One reason probably is that VC1 featured the experienced producer and director of Sakura Taisen games, that had a unique presentation and lore, while VC4 had new staff without any such credentials.

Yeah, that's the thing. Instead of giving us the history of the war between the Empire and the Federation outside of Gallia, they took the cheap way out and gave us a look at two Hail-Mary plans that covered 2/3s of VC4's story that happened all within a month or two. When the actual history of EWII ended up being portrayed as "The Federation was losing badly so they decided to forget that their own homelands were seriously about to be taken over completely and instead massed all their troops in a counteroffensive from their one and only foothold in enemy lands with almost no way to protect supply lines / operation logistics," I'm just like, "...Really? Are you serious?"

[DoomyDoom]

Originally posted by ukie:

Yeah, that's the thing. Instead of giving us the history of the war between the Empire and the Federation outside of Gallia, they took the cheap way out and gave us a look at two Hail-Mary plans that covered 2/3s of VC4's story that happened all within a month or two. When the actual history of EWII ended up being portrayed as "The Federation was losing badly so they decided to forget that their own homelands were seriously about to be taken over completely and instead massed all their troops in a counteroffensive from their one and only foothold in enemy lands with almost no way to protect supply lines / operation logistics," I'm just like, "...Really? Are you serious?"

I have a little bit on this one. A while ago, before VC4 was unveiled, there was an interview with Azure Revolution developers about "Project Valkyria", as they now call the franchise. I've roughly translated that interview back then, and there is a reasonably clear statement about the goals of their "overarching concept".
Here's the full text:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1250fqCYLqO9qgvuw6LpTwaHkLHw_YdyX/view

And here's a relevant quote from Ozawa:
"We’re lucky to not have personal experience, but war itself is obviously an extraordinary event, isn’t it? One might end up dying tomorrow, or might be forced to kill another by circumstances. And within fighting that reason exists. Maybe it’s for the sake of country, maybe it is for the sake of family. The drama that arises from each and everyone’s point of view… The drama of a dynamic group of people will be born, won’t it? That’s what I think is what [valkyria Project]’s works can’t help but strive to explore."

Fits the bill, doesn't it? Even if he didn't work on this one, the project isn't there to tell the "history". It's there for the "interpersonal drama" (aka the cheesy tropetastic anime stuff).


On the subject of reasons behind the invasion, it probably has to do with internal Federation politics we know nothing about from Claude diary's perspective. Like, politicians trying to ride the Galian victory over Empire into popularity boost, would be war profiteering or somesuch. At its darkest, I'd look for someone in Federation conspiring with Empire on the subject of Valkyrian research, forcing the war as a way to experiment with practical application while leaving either side too exhausted to actually decisively win. Whether we'll ever be told any of that - no idea. It'll probably take at least another "behind-the-scenes" game (the "VC3" for VC4, if you will).

[Sirlion]

Originally posted by James Koach:

So... are we to assume the PSP titles (VC2 and VC3) never happened/were retconned?

VC3 is on the Gallian front and it tells a completely different story from a penal batallion's perspective so it cannot be retconned at all, it happened at the exact same time as VC1 save for the last mission.

That aside, I think nothing has to be retconned. A ceasefire is nothing, it could very well be a simple stalemate for a couple months. The Empire probably agreed to cede some territories to the Federation and retire their troops back to the Siegval line in exchange for the Feds to get out of Schwartzgrad.

Both sides will most likely muster new troops and get new supplies, form a new plan, and then get back at it as soon as winter ends. It has been like this for centuries.

[Firestar1212]

Originally posted by DoomyDoom:

Originally posted by James Koach:

This is precisely why I'm asking this. We can all agree VC2 was crap, at least for western players. Even Sega knows the game was crap, and that's why VC3 never got a western localisation.

So... considering how the fanbase despised that game, do we act like it never happened and go on with our lives?

A serious question - what was it, if anything, other than the whole highschool thing and tons of grind that got VC2 so disliked? Because if you strip away the tropetastic anime drama (which is present in each and every VC in the same capacity and quality) and some of the pure stupidity (like military deployment in white kneesocks, material/grade grind, playing in the exact same 8 maps rehashed etc), we're left with a semi-reasonable story of Empire funding a rebellion in Gallia essentially as a test field for their artificial Valkyria research. The research thing is most certainly still canon (if anything, VC4 just nonchalantly drops it on players' heads), VC2 simply takes it to the logical conclusion of making supersoldiers. Was that what got people riled up? Again, serious question, I'm really trying to understand.

first of all, it was the Federation that was funding and supporting the Civl war in VC2, you see the Federation ambassador, townshed several times, and he comments on how with out the federation you wouldnt be here the federation has been know to do just this in neutral nations to force them to heel with a friendly goverment, think coup style take over

the game it self was kinda meh due to the fact it was made for a lesser system(PSP) and it really badly lagged in some parts, the map was also divide up in to smaller "zones" witch you had a limit on how many people you had in them, on top of the god awful grind to use classes, and several of the new classes where just out right usless. out side of the school thing, witch i didnt mind as much as the others, these where the problems i had it with

[ukie]

Originally posted by DoomyDoom:

Fits the bill, doesn't it? Even if he didn't work on this one, the project isn't there to tell the "history". It's there for the "interpersonal drama" (aka the cheesy tropetastic anime stuff).

Thanks for that, and it certainly fits the bill, but then that'd mean they botched things on two fronts - first by making a war drama RPG that tanked and was generally received poorly (Azure Revolution), then by focusing on this interpersonal squad relationship business at the expense of making it mostly irrelevant to the overall setting it's based on (VC4)

And speaking of drama, they also utterly failed in that department towards the end. Ch 17 and 18 grew increasingly painful to watch. I mean, the entire exchange right before the ceasefire did not feel one bit like someone who's sitting on top of a nuclear bomb and about to blast himself - along with his love interest and a little girl - to atoms in order to wipe out a city full of civilians. And then Minerva showed up and they all took that matter-of-factly too... did they all just conveniently forget that they were having this heart-to-heart at what was supposed to be ground zero of a nuclear detonation? And then as soon as Chapter 18 started, the rest of the squad were present right outside not even 100 ft away from the Centurion as well. I mean... Hello? If we're going by Hiroshima and Nagasaki standards, you need to be 2 kilometers away from the source at the very least to clear the thermal radiation radius in order to avoid possibly fatal 3rd degree burns, so what's everyone huddling around the Centurion for? Were they all thinking of going home as molecules?

[petran79]

Originally posted by ukie:

Originally posted by DoomyDoom:

Fits the bill, doesn't it? Even if he didn't work on this one, the project isn't there to tell the "history". It's there for the "interpersonal drama" (aka the cheesy tropetastic anime stuff).

Thanks for that, and it certainly fits the bill, but then that'd mean they botched things on two fronts - first by making a war drama RPG that tanked and was generally received poorly (Azure Revolution), then by focusing on this interpersonal squad relationship business at the expense of making it mostly irrelevant to the overall setting it's based on (VC4)

And speaking of drama, they also utterly failed in that department towards the end. Ch 17 and 18 grew increasingly painful to watch. I mean, the entire exchange right before the ceasefire did not feel one bit like someone who's sitting on top of a nuclear bomb and about to blast himself - along with his love interest and a little girl - to atoms in order to wipe out a city full of civilians. And then Minerva showed up and they all took that matter-of-factly too... did they all just conveniently forget that they were having this heart-to-heart at what was supposed to be ground zero of a nuclear detonation? And then as soon as Chapter 18 started, the rest of the squad were present right outside not even 100 ft away from the Centurion as well. I mean... Hello? If we're going by Hiroshima and Nagasaki standards, you need to be 2 kilometers away from the source at the very least to clear the thermal radiation radius in order to avoid possibly fatal 3rd degree burns, so what's everyone huddling around the Centurion for? Were they all thinking of going home as molecules?

This did not even make sense because previously they were told that the city was evacuated from civilians. Suddenly they returned?

[ukie]

Originally posted by petran79:

This did not even make sense because previously they were told that the city was evacuated from civilians. Suddenly they returned?

I don't know about the city being evacuated since there was still a scene of a little boy crying out for his mother while Claude's hand was still on the bomb switch, but -

They apparently evacuated all the crew on the Centurion except for Claude and Riley... then suddenly Minerva barged in right onto the bridge which already made no sense, then right after that scene we saw the entire squad camping right outside the Centurion. On top of that, instead of anyone representing the Empire on scene to help maintain order in their own capital or even just to formalize the ceasefire and resume some sort of diplomatic channels, it's as if the whole Imperial family / government got sucked up into a blackhole this whole time and the only ones out there at the end on the Empire's side were Walz an Crymaria - and both of them have either stepped down from their posts as commanders or simply deserted earlier. Seriously, what were the director and the producer smoking to think this was supposed to be canonical?

[Green Epaulette]

Originally posted by petran79:

This did not even make sense because previously they were told that the city was evacuated from civilians. Suddenly they returned?

I think you underestimate just how hard it is to evacuate a city with several million inhabitants. People will panic, and do anything they can to save themselves in the most selfish of ways. Stuff like stealing cars, speeding and crashing into each other, funnelling into the best known roads that lead out, etc.

It would take several days, if not weeks, to evacuate Schwartzgrad.

[jeffers0329]

IIRC the narrator stated that people were evacuating the city, doesn't mean it was fully evacuated. During the mission itself there's also radio chatter about the status of the civilians and how they're still evacuating

[ukie]

Originally posted by James Koach:

Originally posted by petran79:

This did not even make sense because previously they were told that the city was evacuated from civilians. Suddenly they returned?

I think you underestimate just how hard it is to evacuate a city with several million inhabitants. People will panic, and do anything they can to save themselves in the most selfish of ways. Stuff like stealing cars, speeding and crashing into each other, funnelling into the best known roads that lead out, etc.

It would take several days, if not weeks, to evacuate Schwartzgrad.

I just looked up the info and now a lot of things started to make total sense...

VC4 Producer: Kei Mikami (credited for directing VC2 and no other titles)
VC4 Director: Kohei Yamashita (credited as miscellaneous crew in VC2 and no other titles)

[petran79]

Originally posted by jeffers0329:

IIRC the narrator stated that people were evacuating the city, doesn't mean it was fully evacuated. During the mission itself there's also radio chatter about the status of the civilians and how they're still evacuating

Previous city where Squad F and E made a mock duel with real weapons was evacuated, so I assumed it would be the case here too.

[Firestar1212]

Originally posted by petran79:

Originally posted by jeffers0329:

IIRC the narrator stated that people were evacuating the city, doesn't mean it was fully evacuated. During the mission itself there's also radio chatter about the status of the civilians and how they're still evacuating

Previous city where Squad F and E made a mock duel with real weapons was evacuated, so I assumed it would be the case here too.

that city didnt have half the population as the captial, so even with a warning, it would still take a long time to evacuate the civis