Please show allies initiative as they are selected

[esx9]

We can do this the easy way... or we can do this the hard way. The hard way is everyone declaring their initiative (and some general intention). The easy way is remove ? and replace it with the whatever the ally selected, whenever they selected it. If they change it just show it. Would make life so much easier.

My first time playing and this would solve a LOT of frustration.

[Slow Dog]

The boardgame rules declare that "players should not give specific information about any numerical value or title on any of their cards". Therefore the selected cards' initiative value and names are not given to the other players.

[scott_smart2000]

Co-op board games in general try very hard to keep all knowledge hidden from players because it can lead to a horrible "Alpha" gamer experience where one person basically tries to play the game for everyone. So, table talking is always limited which is why the initiative should remain secret. You can talk about who should target what enemy, etc, and you could even go "Well, I can go really early, or I can go really late.", but you shouldn't know precisely what everyone is doing on the turn. It will make the game way too easy as well, which is why the solo mode in the board game had a difficulty adjustment in it that didn't get translated to the digital game.

[Loken Stoneheart]

It's a co-op board game so it should be as un-co-op as possible or else people might bicker because they have garbage friends.

[esx9]

Can this be modded at least? I get that it's a faithful recreation of a board game, but I didn't know whether this was intentional or incidental. in truth there's no way we will be planning every move down to the detail because nobody has patience for that. I think it's unreasonable to expect nobody talks about what others are planning though, including their initiative at crucial moments.

I have a diverse group of personalities playing, and this game is seems to provoke quarrels. I think it would smooth things out a lot having basic info about what others are planning. It would help reduce table talk since we could make assumptions about the moves others are making. Anyway it's not a deal breaker. I will try to accept this the way it is.

[Slow Dog]

Originally posted by esx9:

this game is seems to provoke quarrels. I think it would smooth things out a lot having basic info about what others are planning

Part of the rationale is to ensure that you *can't* rely on other teammates all the time. Sometimes a player will want to do something for their battle goal (which again should be kept secret) for the good of themselves, rather than the good of the team. It's all intentional, as Scott says, to prevent someone bossing everyone else.

[esx9]

Originally posted by Slow Dog:

It's all intentional, as Scott says, to prevent someone bossing everyone else.

Right, I will just add - all our players are pretty strong headed. No one is at risk of getting bossed, lol. It's more about weaving a path through all the ridiculous decisions every one else is making. ;)

[hannibal_pjv]

In thins game... person who collect the chest and gold... keep all the gold. Players are supposed to be selfish egoistic and sometimes even mad... (I am looking you battle objectives) So not knowing what you nasty comrades do this time is expected and something you should be always worried about!
Aka this is more like semi co op semi competitive, semi kick your fellow players to the groins game...

[Artan]

I play a 2 player campaign with my IRL friend via online coop and we came to Gloomhaven with the digital version being our first play and having not played the physical board game - though we have both played P&P RP games with hex mats and room tiles before.

As neither of us is "bossing" the other about and as such do not have the "Aplha" gamer experience that scott_smart2000 mentions above, we are happy to chat initiative and plans and actually enjoy making a battle plan together! I can 100% understand why this is against the rules though and I would very much welcome the rules stating that we cannot do this is there was an "Aplha" domineering gamer situation and I would be glad the rules were there to prevent this.

Also - if you were playing solo which may be more likely in the digital than the physical game, then you would be aware of all of these things such as character plan an initiative as you are controlling all chars. As such we see the rule to be there mainly to prevent the "Alpha" gamer negative team experience mainly and not featured as a form of difficulty.

As such we feel it to be rather digressionary as to whether to lift/implement this rule and feel that the rule should be in place by default but that if all players are happy and do not feel controlled by others, that sharing this info is not bad play.

With all this in mind I think the way the game is doing it atm is correct and if you want to discuss initiative etc then this is best done in voice chat outside f the games systems!

Take care and have fun in Gloomhaven all!

[Toad]

Originally posted by esx9:

We can do this the easy way... or we can do this the hard way. The hard way is everyone declaring their initiative (and some general intention). The easy way is remove ? and replace it with the whatever the ally selected, whenever they selected it. If they change it just show it. Would make life so much easier.

I agree: this should at least be a "house rule" option. My friends and I spend (waste) a lot of time telling each other our initiative speeds as we plan each round. It should just be displayed as each player makes their picks.

[esx9]

Yeah, I was open to trying it with secret initiatives, but it doesn't make any sense. May as well play a SP game at that point. We talk about our initiatives and our plans all the time. The justification for this rule leads me to believe the board game had a bunch of people not interested in playing sitting around a table, and one super-hyped geek directing it all.

[Toad]

I don't understand how anyone would want to play this game MP and not talk with your fellow players. To me, this is a hugely co-operative, team-play game. I wouldn't be interested in it otherwise.

[pseudosphere]

I think you're misunderstanding somewhat here. It's not that you aren't supposed to talk at all. Cooperation and planning is completely fine, but it's rather that specificity is discouraged/against the tabletop rules.

https://online.flippingbook.com/view/598058/16/

"Players should not show other players the cards in their hands nor give specific information about any numerical value or title on any of their cards. They are, however, allowed to make general statements about their actions for the round and discuss strategy.

Examples of appropriate communication:

“I’m attacking this guard near the middle of the round.”
“I’m planning on moving here and healing you pretty early in the round, hopefully before the monsters attack.”

Examples of inappropriate communication:

“You’ll need lower than an initiative 17 to go before me.”
“I should be doing 4 points of damage to the bandit, so you don’t have to worry about him.”
“I’m going to use Impaling Eruption and wipe out everyone.”

In addition to what's been stated about not having a single person micromanage the entire turn, the uncertainty in the exact numerical values of your allies' actions adds another layer in the strategy of card selection that even though I didn't really understand it at first, after playing the board game and a bunch of digital, I now appreciate. e.g. if you want to plan actions with another player so that you go before/after them, there's now a decision you have to make about how fast you need to go, with the associated risk/reward --- if you really want to make sure, you play your fastest card, but maybe if it's less critical, you save it for later and play a slightly slower one, etc.

Edit: There's even wording about this from the rulebook as well.

A single player can play the game as a solo experience by controlling two or more characters at once. Part of the game’s difficulty, however, comes from not knowing exactly what the other characters will be doing on their turn. Because a solo player has precise
information about what each character is doing and can coordinate more effectively, the game becomes easier. To compensate for this, solo players should increase the monster level and trap damage by 1 for any given scenario without increasing gold conversion and bonus experience.

Additionally, if they wish, a group of players may also play with fully open information by increasing the difficulty in the same way as for solo play. Playing with open information means that players can share the exact contents of their hands and discuss specific details about what they plan on doing. This is not the recommended way to play the game, but it may be desirable for certain groups.

[Toad]

Originally posted by pseudosphere:

I think you're misunderstanding somewhat here. It's not that you aren't supposed to talk at all. Cooperation and planning is completely fine, but it's rather that specificity is discouraged/against the tabletop rules.

Your quote says:

"Additionally, if they wish, a group of players may also play with fully open information by increasing the difficulty in the same way as for solo play. Playing with open information means that players can share the exact contents of their hands and discuss specific details about what they plan on doing."

This is exactly what my friends and I want. We literally look at each other's decks and talk about what cards we could play to work together.

Frankly, the "suggested" way to play sounds like a recipe for frustration, fights among players, and generally a sucky game that no one plays again after the first any only night. If people want a game of random chance, they may as well just play with shuffled character decks, draw 2 off the top, and play with whatever they get.

[esx9]

If you play with blind initiatives and only vague intentions, what sort of skills do you develop to become good? Guessing what your friends will do? Learning their poker face? Memorizing what card combinations they like to use?

I like to find card synergies across our decks and leverage those synergies in interesting ways. I imagine a group who achieves the top skill level playing the 'proper' way would just know the game inside out from experience and have a really good read on what their friends will choose.

I know this game likes to sell itself as some kind of role playing game but it's really about what the players want, not the characters. Hiding players intentions behind a black curtain so we can imagine it was some rascally character is a hard sell for me.

[scott_smart2000]

A lot of you have rarely ever played cooperative board games, and it shows by the comments. Alpha gamers are real and super-annoying, but mainly, the game becomes easier if everyone can plan out their exact turns which is why the solo mode has a higher difficulty in the board game. And you can communicate a lot of info without being specific. "I'm planning on going early and attacking X." is perfectly fine. Everyone knowing everything is dull to me. Don't play co-op games if you want that. But I do think most of this is coming from people that don't play board games, which is fine. MMOs and the like require constant communication and there's not really anything hidden.