Mindthief and Sun class perks a bit too hard to get

[WorthlessKoridian]

Not that it should be easy to finish all of their challenges (as listed in the Trainer) to unlock their perks, but some feel wildly easier or harder than others. This will vary, to an extent, based on how the player plays them, but as such, certain player choices can make these absurd challenges.

For example, the Mindthief has to summon something 30 times to get one of hers. Assuming the player doesn't take her level 2 card that summons, then they will have to summon the Gnawing Horde 30 times; this can only be done once per game, normally, and players won't always have a good opportunity to play this card. So, on average, let's say it takes 30 scenarios of using the Mindthief to finally unlock this perk. By that time, you'll have easily gotten the perks on all other starting characters, especially the Scoundrel, who probably got two of her three perks (doing damage and moving hexes) after about three scenarios of using her.

I'm not saying all perks should be just as easy or hard to get, but when it takes ten times as many scenarios to get one character's perk over another, it feels a bit wildly unbalanced. The Mindthief just isn't enough of a summoner for 30 to be a reasonable number. Frankly, she's, at best, just as much of a summoner as the Tinkerer is (I would personally argue a worse summoner), and both are significantly less dedicated summoners than a few unlockable classes. The challenge just seems out of touch for her capabilities. As in the title, I feel this is also an issue for the Sun class:


Spoiler warning (class's name and some features):



One of the Sunkeeper's challenges is to hit with a times 2 modifier 40 times. 40! In a vacuum, that would probably take just about as long as it would to do the Mindthief summoning, but it varies because this is entirely luck dependent. A determined player will make certain their Mindthief summons at least once a scenario, but there's no way to guarantee a Sunkeeper will draw those x2s, even if their deck is stacked with blesses. I understand one way to play the Sunkeeper is to utilize all of her advantaged attacks to make this go a bit faster, but 40 is still an awfully big number. And the other main way to play Sunkeeper, as a wall, will not attack nearly as often, much less with advantage; she might realistically (EDIT: word choice) never get this perk. (And I do not think her lack of attacking frequently is just cause to say this isn't even an issue.) So, surely this number can be reduced to something a bit more achievable. Yes, advantaged, offensive Sunkeepers will get it faster, but when the Scoundrel gets two of her perks effortlessly within about three scenarios of playing as her, is that really too much to ask for allowing defensive Sunkeepers to realistically get this perk before being level 9?

TL;DR I feel some classes get their perks wildly more quickly or slowly than others; they could use some rebalancing of their numbers.

[Iduno]

The Spellweaver has a similar issue, but it's at least a card they use nearly every mission (unless it gets accidentally burned, they die, or the mission is just shorter than expected).

The sunkeeper's 2x damage 40 times, 'because you can have advantage on 2 different (single-target) attacks and as few as 12 cards in the results deck' is insane though. Assuming you take only perks that lower the number of possible die rolls, you only need 480 attacks to achieve that, on average, or 240 assuming you managed to attack with advantage every single time.

[scott_smart2000]

Honestly, you get enough perk points to get all the useful perks and then some, so while you make valid points, it isn't all that big of a deal though you have to play a lot of the game to realize that. The way rolling attacks work in this game (as has been debated endlessly here and with the physical game) you really don't want to take a ton that don't do something (stun/bleed/disable/etc) even when you draw the null, because you're going to draw the null a lot the more rolling modifiers you have.

For instance, I'm at level 6 with almost everyone except the Sun and done at least 1 or 2 of everyone's story missions (haven't unlocked 1 class as that one is tough to do and much more of an issue that perk points), and I've gotten almost every good perk.

[WorthlessKoridian]

@Iduno I agree that the Spellweaver's "Use Reviving Ether" one is also pretty dumb (honestly I feel 100 element infusions is also high but eh), but at least, if it's really bothering the player, it's grindable. Just enter a scenario, use it, and exit instantly. This could be done for Mindthief as well, but it gets her experience points, which means I get to play her less. So, agreed, but slightly less of an issue to me. As for the Sunkeeper's numbers, I haven't mathed them out exactly, so I think they'll be different, but the point stands that they're entirely ridiculous.

@scott_smart2000 Yeah, rolling modifiers are counter-intuitive and problematic with advantage (I wish there was a mod to change that so badly, but alas, work with what you have), but if you don't attack with advantage then the more the merrier. As for character unlocks, I guess I don't take as much of an issue with these, as they're all available to be worked on / unlocked the moment you finish the tutorial (rather than being locked behind story progression, like relics are, ugh), but they are definitely super unbalanced (compare Triforce to just about any of the others). Edit: Though I think that's in part by design, as the player probably shouldn't just be given them all at about the same time, hypothetically. No strong opinions here. :x

[Mr. Licorice]

I reported the Sunkeeper issue in another thread. I totally agree, it does not fit with the character design. This is the kind of objective that assumes you have a large density of 2x (bless) in your deck, that you can then take "advantage" of with those specific attack cards. To me there are only two explanations:
- The designer responsible for achievements misunderstood the class, thinking the sunkeeper can bless herself, when in fact she only blesses others.
- The designers take the "paladin" concept seriously, and expect the sunkeeper to donate to the church regularly to receive bless before each mission.

I know this can be helped when the music note character is present. Music notes makes everything easier. But a character achievement should be self dependent, not relying on a specific ally to be doable.

[Les White]

Honestly, I kind of prefer this.

There are perks for a lot of classes that are actually useless or decrease the quality of your attack deck. For example, the Cragheart add two +2's and a -2. I don't want that perk. I never want to take that perk. The only way it's even remotely good is if you enhance one of your bottoms with strengthen and then it becomes okay. But ideally, I never want to take it.

The same thing with the Mindthief - I don't need rolling pulls. I don't want rolling pulls. Rolling pulls just increase the likelyhood of drawing a null and a rolling while you're strengthened (which is a mainstay of the Mindthief) and I would get no benefit out of it. Rolling stun is fine, because if I null, at least I have stunned the creature, which is at least passable.

When you are playing tabletop, your first few characters you are super excited to achieve battle goals and get perks and after you play around with those a few times, you see where some of these junk perks are actually making your deck worse. Therefore there comes a time when you are deliberately failing battle goals simply to not get perks. You can't do anything about perks you gain from level - you have to take those, but what you can do something about is the amount of checkmarks you get. This is made significantly worse by the fact that some perks aren't in the game yet (Like Add Target for Triangles/Eclipse).

The current design as is makes it so you have a number of "optional" perk points. You can spend the time cheesing the game in order to do it if you want to be completionist, or you can just ignore them and keep the effectiveness of your perk deck. I think that's a better situation for both parties.

[WorthlessKoridian]

@Ben Ghazi I understand the argument for tabletop, where you have to take perks when available (though there, the advantage of tabletop is that you could, if the group's okay with it, houserule that away [or just houserule away the dumb rolling/advantage stuff >:p]), but in Guildmaster you don't need to take perks whenever available. You can easily just ignore that Cragheart perk and sit at 13/14 available perks acquired forever. As is, players who don't want the perks never have to take them, but those who do (depending on the character) have to go through hoops and bounds, or just get really lucky, to get them. That doesn't seem like a better outcome for both parties to me.

But ultimately, my point is that it just isn't well balanced between the characters. Surely, the Scoundrel is one of the characters who doesn't want plenty of her perks, due to the odds of whiffing huge attacks, yet she gets them oh so effortlessly. Unless you take Brain Leech, Mindthief isn't actually any more Strengthened than the Scoundrel, sans enhancements, which are very easily put on both characters.

[Les White]

Originally posted by WorthlessKoridian:

@Ben Ghazi I understand the argument for tabletop, where you have to take perks when available (though there, the advantage of tabletop is that you could, if the group's okay with it, houserule that away [or just houserule away the dumb rolling/advantage stuff >:p]), but in Guildmaster you don't need to take perks whenever available. You can easily just ignore that Cragheart perk and sit at 13/14 available perks acquired forever. As is, players who don't want the perks never have to take them, but those who do (depending on the character) have to go through hoops and bounds, or just get really lucky, to get them. That doesn't seem like a better outcome for both parties to me.

But ultimately, my point is that it just isn't well balanced between the characters. Surely, the Scoundrel is one of the characters who doesn't want plenty of her perks, due to the odds of whiffing huge attacks, yet she gets them oh so effortlessly. Unless you take Brain Leech, Mindthief isn't actually any more Strengthened than the Scoundrel, sans enhancements, which are very easily put on both characters.

The game is in an early release state. For all we know, perks will not be optional at some point in the future. Perks are NOT optional in tabletop, and Isaac has stated this. Perks MUST be chosen on levelup. One would expect this to be implemented at some point.

And, no...Mindthief builds rely heavily on adding a strengthen to Empathetic assault bottom heal. It gets you 2 strengthened attacks every rest cycle and is what turns the Mindthief into the machine she ends up being at higher levels. I actually don't even take brain leech anymore because Silent Scream fills a couple of weaknesses in the rotation, but it doesn't matter, because I am strengthened for a MINIMUM of 40% of the rest cycle. 10 cards = 5 turns. 2 of those are strengthened. Rest, 9 cards (if you brought down your augment) = 4 turns, 2 of those are strengthened. Basically Empathetic Assault becomes your best bottom action and with a 50g enchant it makes you strengthened for 50% or more of the scenario

[WorthlessKoridian]

My point there was sans enhancements — I already know of the strategy — but alas. I think Gloomhaven's system supports many different builds and strategies, from a fundamental level.

Perks might not be optional, in Guildmaster, in the future but we can't possibly know that. All I aimed to do was provide commentary on what we have now, giving the developers a finger on the pulse of one of this game's avid fans. (Edit: Which I acknowledge you're doing as well.)

[schnautza]

I've hit level 9 on every character now and have finished everything except a few relic quests. (need to kill one more sun demon with dark to unlock the last one! Trying to find a job scenario with them is not easy!)

But I have 3 more mercenary perks to unlock - one more chest loot for quartermaster (I plan to use him on the relic quests which have plenty of chests, so NBD), 2 more quests with sawbones not dropping below 50% (when I am actively working towards this, it's not hard), and - you guessed it - sunkeeper needs to draw a ton more 2x cards.

She's only drawn 15 so far for her entire lifetime. I'm to the point of cheesing the game to achieve this, setting it on friendly to gain 3 extra blesses, enhancing one of her heal cards and one of saws heal cards with bless, and donating to the temple before each quest to attempt to stack her deck. Also, skipping attacks for allies to attempt to give her a few more swings at them. It's kind of ridiculous how few times I've managed to draw the 2x card for her, given how many she's dealt out to her allies. Having no AOE attacks means less modifiers drawn. And that single null seems to pop up 3x per scenario, always near the top of the pile.
Of all the perks, this one makes the least sense.