Permanent enchantments/enhancements was a broken rule

[pitiflauticus]

Before you flamethrower me, please hear me out :) and then let’s have a healthy debate about the topic.

Gloomhaven is my favourite boardgame ever (Mage Knight and Eldritch Horror being very close seconds). I love Isaac’s design. I have finished the tabletop campaign, extending it as much as possible and replaying some scenarios, so I played around 75 scenarios in total. And I have played around 250h of Gloomhaven digital.

Therefore I have experimented with the game a lot and came to the conclusion that it has (had?) two broken rules:

A) Advantage interacting negatively with rolling modifiers
B) Permanent card enhancements

“A” was actually fixed in both Jaws and Frost via workarounds. “B” is a bit more difficult to fix in the physical version because of the legacy aspect of the game as Isaac himself explained.

Why is “B” a problem in TT?

-It “locks” the build for future characters of the same class because 1) the enhanced cards are the obvious choice as they are considerable more powerful than the other cards of the same level 2) the max number of enhancements per character is limited, so by choosing the other non-enhanced cards, you are limiting yourself on the amount of options to enhance. So you are discouraged of trying other builds, like the hilarious melee “circles” (yes, seriously - check the guide out there :) )

-It unbalances the game in multiplayer. New characters of the same class with a bunch of enhancements are considerably more powerful than characters of other classes, creating a snowballing effect that makes them more and more effective and let them reap more rewards (XP, Gold, Battle Goals etc). In multiplayer, in some cases, this can get annoying

-It discourages players from playing other classes. Gloomhaven is more about “play a class, retire it, move on and try the new class you just unlocked”. In my own TT campaign I replayed the same classes again because of the enhancements and the alluring power spike but retrospectively, that was a bit of a loss on my side because I didn’t play some of the newly unlocked classes AT ALL. Thankfully, the digital version will solve for that!

-Enhancements for high level cards are (in my view) the ultimate reward, the final tweaks to your character when they are fully equipped and swimming in gold, because enhancements are absurdly powerful. They are not something that should be taken for granted and yes, they are meant to be super expensive, so it's not guaranteed to ever get them for high-level cards

-When an enhanced class is played for a second time, all the problems mentioned above get compounded: the already above-average-power-level character will become more and more powerful, it will potentially get permanently enhanced even more, to the point where the optimized build is fully locked

Lowering the price of enhancements to compensate their non-permanent nature is not a solution in my opinion because enhancements can really alter the balance of the game.

The game is designed around the tactical choices of going out of your way to get gold vs doing more effective actions, choosing sub-par loot cards in your deck or not, etc. Making enhancements cheaper may have a dominoes effect on many aspects of the gameplay balance.

Besides those issues, that I agree in some cases are a matter of personal preference and choice and more relevant in the TT version, if permanent enhancements are brought back in the digital version, with enhancements being re-sellable, a newly created character could sell those enhancements right after character creation and get a massive gold refund. Hundreds of gold pieces in some cases. So additional coding should be implemented to avoid the character using that gold for items (I assume everyone would agree that a newly created level 1 character spending hundreds of gold on items wouldn’t make any sense).

All in all, I think the digital version fixed a problem with the base game. I wish they did the same with the other one too! :D

Now, unlock the flamethrowers and let's debate!

PS Guildmaster still allows players to play around with mega-buffed, super enhanced characters, btw...

[IKerensky]

Don't agree with any of your issues. Bring back permanent enhancement.
But I would like if advantage was upgraded.

[Pirignao [G3NZ]]

For what is worth, I totally agree with everything. But I wouldn't complain if an option for permanent enhancements was introduced, for those who want to stick more to the original game.

[David]

Longtime tabletop player here.

Being able to swap enhancements is great, it very much adds to the experience. But I detest the amount of waste when I retire in digital. It devalues gold gain so much for it to be pointless once you're strong enough to win scenarios.

I agree that locking in future players to a particular build could feel bad, but the person playing a repeat class with two enhancements is still not having as much fun as the person playing a never-before-seen class. The right enhancements opened up new builds -- you could skip wands or status application items after you enhanced the right cards.

If enhancements aren't going to be permanent, their costs need to be reworked.

[Lampros]

Originally posted by David:

If enhancements aren't going to be permanent, their costs need to be reworked.

Bingo. For the umpteenth time, it is not the lack of persistence that has people up in arms; it is the lack of cost reduction commensurate with the loss of persistence that infuriates folks - and such one-sided, nerf-oriented balancing is unfortunately pervasive in the industry.

[pitiflauticus]

Originally posted by Lampros:

Originally posted by David:

If enhancements aren't going to be permanent, their costs need to be reworked.

Bingo. For the umpteenth time, it is not the lack of persistence that has people up in arms; it is the lack of cost reduction commensurate with the loss of persistence that infuriates folks - and such one-sided, nerf-oriented balancing is unfortunately pervasive in the industry.

I don't think the price of the enhancements in the boardgame was balanced against its permanency status. I think the price thresholds were established based on the additional power they provide the characters with.

Example: Cragheart's Cursenado (Dirt Tornado + Curse: big AOE that damages, curses, and muddles). At 150 gold (if I remember correctly) it's a game-breaking enhancement already. Cheaper than that would be ridiculous.

Another example: big-move cards with jump - super cheap, but extremely useful. Making these enhancements even cheaper would make a lot of items irrelevant.

And so on.

Reducing the price of the enhancements would affect the whole balancing of the game.

[Mr. E.]

You are wrong, because you have this crazy idea that other people are competing with you. If they have an advantage you don't take, somehow that's unfair to you. We don't know you and we don't care about you. We only care about having fun ourselves.

I strive to try all the classes and complete all the quests without farming gold. When do I repeat classes? Rarely, and typically to balance my 3-character party out.

When I retire a character, I enjoy the feeling my "team" is progressing, because it's a campaign. When characters disappear, without buying their final upgrade, this fun is decreased, even knowing I may never return to that character class. Why has the online version been designed to decrease my fun? I don't know. I do know I don't want my fun decreased to satisfy your style of play or your personal goals.

I'm 20+ scenarios into the digital version. I've purchased one enchantment. By the time a character is geared up, it is retired. Why bother having an enchantment system for the many of us who do not farm gold? Farming gold makes this (and every game) worse, but the current system is only beneficial to gold farmers. That's a terrible design choice.

[pitiflauticus]

Originally posted by Mr. E.:

We only care about having fun ourselves.

I respect your opinion and I don't think anyone is competing with me. Not sure where is that coming from. My question would be, why is your fun so tied to this clear power creep?

Originally posted by Mr. E.:

I'm 20+ scenarios into the digital version. I've purchased one enchantment

That's odd. I am 25 or successful scenarios into the campaign, with around 90% win rate, I retired 3 characters already (Spellweaver, Cragheart, and Mindthief) that were fully geared AND had 3 enhancements each (the Cragheart actually got his fourth and that triggered the retirement)... I didn't need to farm any gold beyond what was available during the scenarios themselves...

An additional comment: it never made sense thematically that a mercenary that's about to retire after a life of adventure, suddenly sells all of their possessions and donates all of their gold to an enchantress... I know that justifying rules via theme is a slippery slope but this inconsistency in particular always irritated me.

In any case, if most people want their enhancements to either be permanent or reduced in price... that's totally fine if the devs implement it as an option.

[Grimtoothy]

If they just gave us a bit more money on start up relative to the number of previous retires it would eliminate the problem. And it would work well with their "Sell back enchancements for free" policy.

I'm not looking to spend 450 on one 7 level enchantment.But getting to a 225 gold enchantment should be reasonable if you sacrifice in other places.

So give us 30 + 15 per additional level + 25 (or so) per party retirement level (the additional perks at start up). This will encourage players to work toward retirement by giving them a smallish benefit to get enhancements. This way, about 2 retirements in - a sunkeeper could spend all his initial start up on a 100 coin enhancement. Thereby avoiding his terrible looting ability.

[Goilveig]

I don't really see those problems, and we've also finished the TT game / mostly through Forgotten Circles.

Replaying classes just because one or two cards are better than they were before is not a thing that happened in our campaign at all. Sure, it's a nice bonus when you get a cool card but it's rarely a huge deal. I think we only repeated about one class before we'd tried all 17 (and I think that was just nobody went back to try the Brute until really late in the campaign).

Locking into a build is only a marginal issue, and generally I can't recall any card above level 3 that was enhanced. There are still plenty of other options out there, and people were thoughtful about what they enhanced so it would be good for future players regardless of how they played the class.

[Mike Garrison]

But if you don't replay classes, who cares if the cards are enhanced or not? Since some people very obviously *do* care, then it's clear they must be replaying the classes.

[Fringehunter7719]

I completely agree pitiflauticus, although as far as I'm concerned the tabletop rules were broken in a third place: Line of Sight.

Having hexes that you can see through, but not into or out of, and having situations where a wall to your left stops you seeing someone in front of and to the right of you are beyond inane.

Happily that rule has also been fixed in future games of the Gloomhaven franchise, I've been led to believe.

If I'm being honest the changes to stamina potions and enhancements don't completely fix the big problem the game has though, although the other issues are more incremental than game breaking. Late game cards and items (and a certain unlockable Eclipse class from mid game) trivialise so much of the content that it becomes a repetitive, ludicrously one-sided, grind. I can only imagine how bad this would be with permanent enhancements.

I enjoyed my time with the digital game, but I can't honestly see me getting to the end of the 100ish campaign scenarios on +2, it's just not engaging anymore after a certain amount of power creep. And that's with an absolute blanket self ban on Eclipse.

[Goilveig]

Originally posted by Mike Garrison:

But if you don't replay classes, who cares if the cards are enhanced or not? Since some people very obviously *do* care, then it's clear they must be replaying the classes.

Because eventually you will replay classes, since there's only 17 and in a group of 4 you can easily retire every one before completing the campaign, much less all side scenarios or the expansion.

[Tiggy]

Enhancement costs the way they are currently are impossible to fully utilise or enjoy. Enhancing anything above level 5 already costs your entire life savings. Screw players who play classes that don't focus on gold am I right?

[fasteraubert]

Late to the party....

Enhancing cards was probably my favorite part of the tabletop game. Especially the experience of right before(during) retiring.... taking all the money you had earned and 'leaving your mark' on the class for future players to use. We would run it by the other players to make sure it was a 'solid' upgrade that wouldn't lock out other builds/choices for the next person to play it. In general most characters have 1 "best" build and most levels have a clear "better" card. You CAN build other ways... but its generally objectively worse on most characters so if you use that card on your play-through its highly likely the next person will also be using that same card, enhanced or not. I do think the slots / costs on enhance-able cards needs work.... dirt tornado curse or disarm is the stand out for me but there are lots of other op options. Some of the AOE adjacent heals/buffs that you can add a second buff to are also very good. Sun-keeper or summoner with summon items can put the entire blessing pile into their deck in 1 turn (I made a sun-summon-keeper in the tabletop and it was AMAZING).

Anyway my friends and I JUST realized that enhancements are not permanent after 30-40+ missions and unlocking all but 1 classes. The FIRST person played a class for the second time and was like... where are the enhancements you spent 10 sessions farming for? TBH that killed my interest in playing anymore. Now it just feels like grinding to me to get through the missions. Perks don't matter after 3-4 retirements and level 5+. Retirements don't matter after you unlock all the classes. Enhancements are too expensive to bother with if they only last 110- missions.... soooo yeah...... interest over :/

And this from someone who put 80h into doing the mercenary mode when only 6 characters and 1/3 the items were around.....but at least those enhancements stayed :/

[Jo]

Originally posted by fasteraubert:

Late to the party....

But enhancements do stay. it's an option when you create the campaign. Or they stay at their current price, or you avail the new system where they don't stay but are cheaper.

EDIT: Sorry this has been implemented along the road and does not impact existing campaign. I understand your disappointment then.