Cragheart, Soothsinger, Clear the Way

[eli]

So, I play Gloomhaven with a few coworkers every fortnight (the board game). Since I found the game extremely addicting I found that I couldn't wait 2 weeks between game sessions. Luckily, I found out that this game existed.

I play Cragheart every fortnight with my coworkers, and thought it would benefit our group if I continued to do so in the this game, honing my abilities.

I did however find a peculiar situation with the Cragheart's "Clear the Way" top action (one that has been debated a lot). The attacks have already been declared ranged, per the FAQ. This seems to definitely be the case in the game as well, as I've had a few usages where disadvantage is applied. But I've also noticed how this card becomes extremely powerful when a Soothsinger is part of the group.

If the Soothsinger is using "Song of Speed" as one of her songs, the "+1 Range" modifier is applied to "Clear the Way"; it converts the "target all enemies adjacent to the moved obstacle" to "target all enemies with Range 2 from the moved obstacle".

Is this an oversight from developers? Or rather, are we to interpret "target all adjacent" when doing ranged attacks as "target all enemies with 1 Range"?

I could imagine that the game considers "all adjacent" as "Range 1", and thus, wrongfully adds the +1 range to the attacks. Just looking for some clarification on this.

Screens showing the combo:
https://imgur.com/a/fulYmzb

[ZexxCrine]

You like having the excuse to use fortnight. I get it.

It’s not an oversight. It is how the card reads. Clear the way indicates a range and therefore is a ranged attack. Adding range to that attack would be the same as adding range to any attack. it’s a weird edge case that has been debated before. I found threads debating it back in 2018 on board game geek. The only people arguing against this interpretation are those insisting on the idea of splash damage or those arguing for the idea that you can’t add plus 1 to nothing even though the card has always had range 1.

my personal opinion is that this is intended and that the craghearts card “clear the way” was made with this interaction(and others) in mind. Otherwise it seems a little too straightforward for an X card.

[chrisboote]

As written, Soothsinger/Song of Speed plus Cragheart/Clear the Way should only increase the Range 4 of the initial part of that card - still only adjacent enemies should be attacked

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by chrisboote:

As written, Soothsinger/Song of Speed plus Cragheart/Clear the Way should only increase the Range 4 of the initial part of that card - still only adjacent enemies should be attacked

Incorrect. The movement of the obstacle is not an attack. The card rules as written are 2 seperate actions. 1. Move an obstacle(this is not an attack at all so you can’t add plus range to it) then 2. Attack.

However also due to the rules if an action denotes a range at any point it is considered a ranged action.

[ecla]

You get the same crazy boost with Mindthieft Cranial Explosion and anything that increases Range. You will turn an Attack 2 target any adjacent enemies to an Attack 2 target all enemies within +1 (or +2 or +3 or more .. Telescopic Helm anyone) and flatten the entire room if you add Power Pots and so on and so on.

[eli]

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

You like having the excuse to use fortnight. I get it.

Lol, I don't know why I repeat myself. Never tried Fortnight the game. ;-)

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

It’s not an oversight. It is how the card reads. Clear the way indicates a range and therefore is a ranged attack. Adding range to that attack would be the same as adding range to any attack. it’s a weird edge case that has been debated before. I found threads debating it back in 2018 on board game geek. The only people arguing against this interpretation are those insisting on the idea of splash damage or those arguing for the idea that you can’t add plus 1 to nothing even though the card has always had range 1.

I tried finding some threads on this, but didn't manage to do so, as I was curious whether it indeed was intended; that all +X Range modifiers apply to the "target all adjacent", lik @ecla mentions with the Mindthief. I'll have to talk with my group and see if they agree.

Any chance you could find a thread where this is debated? Doesn't have to be Cragheart's Clear the Way specific, just "target all adjacent" and "+X Range" modifiers.

Originally posted by ecla:

You get the same crazy boost with Mindthieft Cranial Explosion and anything that increases Range. You will turn an Attack 2 target any adjacent enemies to an Attack 2 target all enemies within +1 (or +2 or +3 or more .. Telescopic Helm anyone) and flatten the entire room if you add Power Pots and so on and so on.

Interesting. I might try this with "Nature's Lift" as well... hehe.

Originally posted by chrisboote:

As written, Soothsinger/Song of Speed plus Cragheart/Clear the Way should only increase the Range 4 of the initial part of that card - still only adjacent enemies should be attacked

"As written" where? And the "Range 4" seems to be associated with the movement of the obstacle, not the attack action. And the "Song of Speed" clearly states "attack actions".

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by eli:

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

You like having the excuse to use fortnight. I get it.

Lol, I don't know why I repeat myself. Never tried Fortnight the game. ;-)

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

It’s not an oversight. It is how the card reads. Clear the way indicates a range and therefore is a ranged attack. Adding range to that attack would be the same as adding range to any attack. it’s a weird edge case that has been debated before. I found threads debating it back in 2018 on board game geek. The only people arguing against this interpretation are those insisting on the idea of splash damage or those arguing for the idea that you can’t add plus 1 to nothing even though the card has always had range 1.

I tried finding some threads on this, but didn't manage to do so, as I was curious whether it indeed was intended; that all +X Range modifiers apply to the "target all adjacent", lik @ecla mentions with the Mindthief. I'll have to talk with my group and see if they agree.

Any chance you could find a thread where this is debated? Doesn't have to be Cragheart's Clear the Way specific, just "target all adjacent" and "+X Range" modifiers.

Originally posted by ecla:

You get the same crazy boost with Mindthieft Cranial Explosion and anything that increases Range. You will turn an Attack 2 target any adjacent enemies to an Attack 2 target all enemies within +1 (or +2 or +3 or more .. Telescopic Helm anyone) and flatten the entire room if you add Power Pots and so on and so on.

Interesting. I might try this with "Nature's Lift" as well... hehe.

Originally posted by chrisboote:

As written, Soothsinger/Song of Speed plus Cragheart/Clear the Way should only increase the Range 4 of the initial part of that card - still only adjacent enemies should be attacked

"As written" where? And the "Range 4" seems to be associated with the movement of the obstacle, not the attack action. And the "Song of Speed" clearly states "attack actions".

people make an assumption that range cant be added to adjacent. this is an interesting thing to me because adjacent doesnt mean that it has to be breathing down your throat. my neighbors house is adjacent to mine but i'd still have to walk to it, i cant just jump out my window onto my neighbors house.

that said, there are few threads discussing this interaction of adjacency because there are very few adjacent ranged attacks. in almost any other circumstance that would be a bad attack guranteed to be at disadvantage. melee attacks don't follow this logic because most things that increase range only target a specific area as nnoted by a hex and cant have its range increased, or items increasing the range create a new hex pattern instead of adding range explicitly. most add range attacks can only apply to ranged attacks as explicitly stated. "your next single target ranged attack" or "your ranged attack action"

but if you want an example(which is litterally the first result on google for "clear the way +1 range" https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1924371/cragheart-clear-way-and-1-range

the attack is a ranged attack, which means that the ranged attack gets all benefits that a ranged attack is owed and all downsides. the only confusing bit is isaac himself who at one point in the faq(which isnt a stable source of info as things in it have changed a bunch and probably will continue to) sugessted that you can increase the range on making an obsticle with +range cards even though doing so is not an attack. people pass that around like its proof that it should make clear the way get tossed farther, but you would think that if his intention was to say "it works this way and not this way" he would have also said "it doesnt increase the range of the attack in that instance"

Edit: this is the best way to visualize this interaction to me as made by a poster discussing cranium overload as a ranged attack

"Cranium overload is not the MT exploding the skull of the enemy and doing damage to adjacent enemies. It is not burning it its mind so that it thrashed around and attacks enemies near it. It is the MT using a brutal psychic blast centered on the first enemy killing it immediately and the psychic shockwave of that attack damaging enemies adjacent to the one killed."

with that as a logical thread to follow to visualize the scenario

the cragheart picks up an object and tosses it up over the battlefeild. it lands hard either splintering or sending a shockwave around it. thats why its a ranged attack. if its a ranged attack, it must use all the qualities inherent to a ranged attack.


if you would like, you could always email isaac himself about it so that whatever mistake is being made on whichever side of the argument is wrong can be corrected. if i'm wrong I would like to know and I would like it to be changed.

[jep]

In a game like this, there's only so much that can be done consistently and simply, and this card is one of the ones where it can't. It's funky, but the designer said it was intended to be ranged (explicitly or implicitly by not correcting the FAQ), so it's ranged. But people are always free to home brew whatever rules they prefer (board games, yay!)

Even if cards like this are confusing, I'm glad they're there for the variety. Another example is the Brute attack where you move through a bunch of people, the perform an attack. Thematically, you are attacking as you move, but in the game it's treated as one single big melee attack (if I remember right), more like an area attack. So you can use items that are "your whole attack" and apply it to every monster. It's weird, but it's fun.

Here's one thread about it in combination with Nature's Lift, the Cragheart's own +1 Range card:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1924371/

Edit: Well, that's what I get for clicking the thread, replying and leaving the edit window open until the kids are fed and in bed. :D