wonky tutorial

[McDabbin]

So tutorial is really unforgiving, you'd think tutorial would teach not just die n say the same thing no hints or anything about what was clicked wrong. Some its the same clicks but it works, IE the first archer with the jump- sometimes I got the first move sometimes it did for no reason... Frustrated with tutorial already leaves me worried about actual game.

[ZexxCrine]

I really don’t understand how so many people cant read. I know tutorials aren’t the most engaging content, but seriously. The game tells you exactly what to do. It sounds like you currently have no idea how initiative works even though the game explained it to you as the enemies always draw the same cards in each separate tutorial.

[ZexxCrine]

This is a great opportunity. Ive seen people complain about the tutorial before but not a single one of them will give a specific example. Tell me what tutorial you are on and I will personally screenshot everything you either forgot or plain didn’t read. I also have to point out that should I be wrong and its extremely unclear and I’m an idiot that will be proven as well so either way its a win for the community.

[McDabbin]

it comes to mechanics, theres a lot of them initiative for example- its explained but only somewhat- like tutorial saying you need to dodge all 4 attacks- but doesnt tell you how. Oh so you have to pick the card with the lowest INT first which was explained in a pervious tutorial but is not re-told to put in your head the importance, its die over n over till you figure it out, instead of maybe after a try of two a hint bar pops up or it tells you to go back n re-read. just not very user friendly is all- lots of games high light make the box glow, like an obvious do this and this is why. Hold hand style cuz its a tutorial

[Tibbleton]

Granting i already knew how to play and was just doing it to learn the app, but I thought the tutorials were really good, for the most part. They tell you the end goal, only give you 2-3 cards to pick from, and then the monster initiative always goes higher than either card you need to pick to win.

edit: I am realizing I skipped the super intro tutorials and started with the second set. Maybe the first set isn't a good learn the game intro for all I know.

[ZexxCrine]

My man. Your plan was to go late to avoid an entire room of enemies you are in the middle of? I mean it let you do it tho. Idk how you can complain it holds your hand like a child but also lets you die like a dog.

That said, if your concern is that the game will be like this the whole time it wont, but I can guarantee you will die repeatedly if you skip it.

Gloomhaven has a steep learning curve at the beginning and it’s understandable to have some difficulty with it. But I don’t think they could have done a tutorial better than they did. The game has too many mechanics to keep repeating to you “initiative is important” so they give a tutorial that requires you to go first in order to disarm an enemy. Then they give a tutorial on how to read what an enemy is doing in order to avoid them. The bandit guards all draw a move 3 attack IIRC so you have to find the one spot on the map that is 4 away from every bandit.

[Sev]

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

This is a great opportunity. Ive seen people complain about the tutorial before but not a single one of them will give a specific example. Tell me what tutorial you are on and I will personally screenshot everything you either forgot or plain didn’t read. I also have to point out that should I be wrong and its extremely unclear and I’m an idiot that will be proven as well so either way its a win for the community.

Like I said before when you get the Scoundrel is not explained at all that you need to short rest on the 1st turn.

I actually found the tutorial harder then the actually regular game. The funny thing is you don't need to short rest on the 1st turn of the regular game either so the tutorial is way off.

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by Sev:

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

This is a great opportunity. Ive seen people complain about the tutorial before but not a single one of them will give a specific example. Tell me what tutorial you are on and I will personally screenshot everything you either forgot or plain didn’t read. I also have to point out that should I be wrong and its extremely unclear and I’m an idiot that will be proven as well so either way its a win for the community.

Like I said before when you get the Scoundrel is not explained at all that you need to short rest on the 1st turn.

I actually found the tutorial harder then the actually regular game. The funny thing is you don't need to short rest on the 1st turn of the regular game either so the tutorial is way off.

this is false and here are the screen shots.
this is the first text box telling you you need multi target
https://i.imgur.com/6Kkvnix.png

this is your hand
https://i.imgur.com/zSEtBRx.png

the only other card that can kill an enemy as you need to "kill all three archers before they can attacK"(the mission objective in the top right) is smoke bombing an enemy into a trap which you should know because you just did a brute tutorial in moving enemies into traps.

so your litteral only option based on all the information the game has directly told you is
https://i.imgur.com/WOJjJ1E.png

so next you are given this text box
https://i.imgur.com/1d7Vj13.png telling you to loot and use a top move

this is your hand
https://i.imgur.com/OQO4JSi.png

you are forced to short rest because you dont have 2 cards to play as told to you in the short rest tutorial at the beginning of the game. out of your cards only 2 of them have a top move and a bottom loot action meaning this combination is your only possible pair to do the exact thing the tutorial told you
https://i.imgur.com/MtUGegW.png

so where is the stuff they dont tell you and where is the short rest you must perform turn 1?

[Toby]

Dear OP, any amount of criticism you have for this game will be drown out by the chorus of fanboys it has from its board game iteration.

Stand fast and ignore them if you can, though they will try to rattle you. Saying that you must not be able to read, and that you must not have played another video game before or that you must not know what an initiative is, and they will act like every issue you have with the game is rather a personal issue you have with them and their friends and families.

Curiously, any fanboys have an issue with the fact that the tutorial takes the player so long to complete that once he is done and has decided he does not enjoy the game -- it's already too late to refund.

Or is that our fault too.

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by Sad Gizmo:

Dear OP, any amount of criticism you have for this game will be drown out by the chorus of fanboys it has from its board game iteration.

Stand fast and ignore them if you can, though they will try to rattle you. Saying that you must not be able to read, and that you must not have played another video game before or that you must not know what an initiative is, and they will act like every issue you have with the game is rather a personal issue you have with them and their friends and families.

Curiously, any fanboys have an issue with the fact that the tutorial takes the player so long to complete that once he is done and has decided he does not enjoy the game -- it's already too late to refund.

Or is that our fault too.

No that’s not your fault. That’s steam’s fault. The 2 hour limit is just not enough for most games. It should just be 2 days no questions asked and then the current system on top. Would be much better. Only problem then is your gonna have people complain about games you can beat in two days which is also a fair point but idk what to do about that one. I wish I had all the answers there.

[Toby]

Appreciate your calm reply, but I disagree. There is a framework that all steam game tutorials must fit inside, the main (unspoken) restriction being that 2 hour time limit. This tutorial does not comply.

It could have -- just teach the player the very core concepts in the official tutorial then, if you can't fit the entire thing inside 2 hours, and then give us a heftier "2nd tutorial" in the form of a basic mission that the game walks you through later. This isn't an ideal way to build a tutorial for a steam game, *but it is the responsible one*.

At best the tutorial in it's current state is inconsiderate to the average gamer who gets stuck paying for a game they will never play -- worst case scenario it's predatory.

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by Sad Gizmo:

Appreciate your calm reply, but I disagree. There is a framework that all steam game tutorials must fit inside, the main (unspoken) restriction being that 2 hour time limit. This tutorial does not comply.

It could have -- just teach the player the very core concepts in the official tutorial then, if you can't fit the entire thing inside 2 hours, and then give us a heftier "2nd tutorial" in the form of a basic mission that the game walks you through later. This isn't an ideal way to build a tutorial for a steam game, *but it is the responsible one*.

At best the tutorial in it's current state is inconsiderate to the average gamer who gets stuck paying for a game they will never play -- worst case scenario it's predatory.

That’s a strange idea to have. It’s also flawed. Even if your assertion that the tutorial cannot reasonably be completed in two hours were accurate, I’m not sure where you get the idea that somehow each developer independently makes a decision to lengthen their tutorial for the sake of scammming a customer out of a refund. I’m not entirely sure where you get the idea that the developers concern themselves with such things. If that was their goal, the game would be laden with DRM to prevent its piracy for as long as possible with the intended goal of requiring a purchase and then keeping them there so they cant get a refund.

Meanwhile this early access game has been on sale multiple times and the actual gloomhaven team openly endorces print and play, and providing those files themselves. providing the tools for a tabletop simulator version of the sequel that isn’t even out yet to demo and play test. I’m not sure any of those things are anti consumer?

That said, they did exactly the thing you said? You do a few brute tutorials for basic mechanics and then a single scoundrel tutorial for some mechanics there and then the game lets you play a mission unguided. Then after that you get more tutorials. The brute and scoundrel segments can be completed well before two hours even for slow players. I can understand levying that complaint towards the complete tutorial including all 6 characters, but you get two more quick tutorials before the game gives you ANOTHER unguided mission with the tinkerer and spell weaver.

At that point, you have seen the core mechanics and could reasonably make a decision. That said I completely understand not feeling like its enough and continue playing and running out of your short time limit that again, I don’t really support.

[Sev]

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

Originally posted by Sev:

Like I said before when you get the Scoundrel is not explained at all that you need to short rest on the 1st turn.

I actually found the tutorial harder then the actually regular game. The funny thing is you don't need to short rest on the 1st turn of the regular game either so the tutorial is way off.

this is false and here are the screen shots.
this is the first text box telling you you need multi target
https://i.imgur.com/6Kkvnix.png

this is your hand
https://i.imgur.com/zSEtBRx.png

the only other card that can kill an enemy as you need to "kill all three archers before they can attacK"(the mission objective in the top right) is smoke bombing an enemy into a trap which you should know because you just did a brute tutorial in moving enemies into traps.

so your litteral only option based on all the information the game has directly told you is
https://i.imgur.com/WOJjJ1E.png

so next you are given this text box
https://i.imgur.com/1d7Vj13.png telling you to loot and use a top move

this is your hand
https://i.imgur.com/OQO4JSi.png

you are forced to short rest because you dont have 2 cards to play as told to you in the short rest tutorial at the beginning of the game. out of your cards only 2 of them have a top move and a bottom loot action meaning this combination is your only possible pair to do the exact thing the tutorial told you
https://i.imgur.com/MtUGegW.png

so where is the stuff they dont tell you and where is the short rest you must perform turn 1?

Thanks for proving my point. Don't see the words 'short rest' in any of those screen shots. You can actually finish the first step of taking out 3 targets without needing to rest.

You do realise this is the tutorial right? People who play this are often completely unfamiliar with Gloomhaven and maybe boardgame adaptions in general.

The tutorial isn't for people who know about the game which you keep forgetting. That you are happy with the tutorial is irrelevant.

[Toby]

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

That’s a strange idea to have. It’s also flawed. Even if your assertion that the tutorial cannot reasonably be completed in two hours were accurate, I’m not sure where you get the idea that somehow each developer independently makes a decision to lengthen their tutorial for the sake of scammming a customer out of a refund. I’m not entirely sure where you get the idea that the developers concern themselves with such things. If that was their goal, the game would be laden with DRM to prevent its piracy for as long as possible with the intended goal of requiring a purchase and then keeping them there so they cant get a refund.

Meanwhile this early access game has been on sale multiple times and the actual gloomhaven team openly endorces print and play, and providing those files themselves. providing the tools for a tabletop simulator version of the sequel that isn’t even out yet to demo and play test. I’m not sure any of those things are anti consumer?

That said, they did exactly the thing you said? You do a few brute tutorials for basic mechanics and then a single scoundrel tutorial for some mechanics there and then the game lets you play a mission unguided. Then after that you get more tutorials. The brute and scoundrel segments can be completed well before two hours even for slow players. I can understand levying that complaint towards the complete tutorial including all 6 characters, but you get two more quick tutorials before the game gives you ANOTHER unguided mission with the tinkerer and spell weaver.

At that point, you have seen the core mechanics and could reasonably make a decision. That said I completely understand not feeling like its enough and continue playing and running out of your short time limit that again, I don’t really support.

If you will notice, the idea that this tutorial is predatory was given as a worst case scenario. I hope you understand what that means. "I really don't understand how so many people can't read."

But if the tutorial remains over-long, then at some point it BECOMES predatory. This isn't the first time anyone has mentioned this as an issue, and if it doesn't change, it won't be the last.

And what I meant by changing it, is exactly that: change it. You admit that it goes on for some time, bouncing between characters and so on. Change it so that there is a succinct tutorial that you can complete within the 2 hour time frame, and once you are done with it -- you FEEL like you understand the general premise of the game.

Now you can give the player who wants to stick around the full treatment in some sort of in-depth tutorial-scenario that walks them through some of the finer points.

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by Sev:

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

this is false and here are the screen shots.
this is the first text box telling you you need multi target
https://i.imgur.com/6Kkvnix.png

this is your hand
https://i.imgur.com/zSEtBRx.png

the only other card that can kill an enemy as you need to "kill all three archers before they can attacK"(the mission objective in the top right) is smoke bombing an enemy into a trap which you should know because you just did a brute tutorial in moving enemies into traps.

so your litteral only option based on all the information the game has directly told you is
https://i.imgur.com/WOJjJ1E.png

so next you are given this text box
https://i.imgur.com/1d7Vj13.png telling you to loot and use a top move

this is your hand
https://i.imgur.com/OQO4JSi.png

you are forced to short rest because you dont have 2 cards to play as told to you in the short rest tutorial at the beginning of the game. out of your cards only 2 of them have a top move and a bottom loot action meaning this combination is your only possible pair to do the exact thing the tutorial told you
https://i.imgur.com/MtUGegW.png

so where is the stuff they dont tell you and where is the short rest you must perform turn 1?

Thanks for proving my point. Don't see the words 'short rest' in any of those screen shots. You can actually finish the first step of taking out 3 targets without needing to rest.

You do realise this is the tutorial. People who play this are often completely unfamilar with Gloomhaveb and maybe boardgame adaptions in general.

The tutorial isn't for people who know about the game which you keep forgetting. That you are happy with the tutorial is irrelevant.

My man you literally can do nothing else? Like if I showed you a multple choice question like this

What is 2 plus 2?
A.4
A.4
A.4
A.4

Would you think I’m not being clear that its 4?

[Sev]

Originally posted by ZexxCrine:

Originally posted by Sev:

Thanks for proving my point. Don't see the words 'short rest' in any of those screen shots. You can actually finish the first step of taking out 3 targets without needing to rest.

You do realise this is the tutorial. People who play this are often completely unfamilar with Gloomhaveb and maybe boardgame adaptions in general.

The tutorial isn't for people who know about the game which you keep forgetting. That you are happy with the tutorial is irrelevant.

My man you literally can do nothing else? Like if I showed you a multple choice question like this

What is 2 plus 2?
A.4
A.4
A.4
A.4

Would you think I’m not being clear that its 4?

But the obvious answer isn't actually the correct one. The first thing you get told to do is a Scoundrel is to take out three targets NOT pick up 5 gold. You actually need to metagame knowing that you need to pick up 5 gold after to order to do a unneeded short rest before the 1st task in preparation for the 2nd.

The worst thing is that it teaches new players bad habits. Gloomhaven is a game about resource management you actually don't want to rest unnecessarily because you dont want to burn cards if you don't have too.